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6e Elf Gunslinger bare bones build

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Hobbes

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« on: <03-26-20/1413:14> »
Got a request for a 6E Gunslinger Build.  Here is the bare bones:


Metatype B Elf 11
Attributes A 24 Points
Skills C 20 Points
Magic D 1 PP Adept
Resources E 8000

     Points      Total
S     0             2
A     7            11
R     4             8
B     2             3
I      4            5
L      0            2
C     6             7
W     2            3

Edge 5            6
Magic 5           6


Bad Debt
Impared Str 3       -24
Impared Logic 3   -24
Exceptional Agility  12
Mentor Spirit          10
Ambidextrous          4
Total                     -20 (Max)



Skill                  Ranks         Karma
Firearms              6
Stealth                5
Exotic Weapon      5
Athletics               4
Con                      1                  5
Influence              1                   5
Perception             1                  5

Specializations

Monowhip                                 5
Sneak                                       5
Acting                                       5
Intimidate                                 5
Visual                                       5
Heavy Pistol                              5

Nuyen                                      5

Bonus Karma                           -20
Strength +1                              10
Logic +1                                   10

Total                                         50

Adept Powers
Increased Reflexes 3
Increased Agility 3
Mentor Spirit Power



Item                       
Light Crossbow
Combat Axe
Fake SIN 3
Jackrabbit
Low Life 1 Month
Armored Jacket
Injection Bolt 4
Meta Commlink
Trodes
Subvocal Mic
Narcojet 5
Contacts, Thermo
Low, Image
Survival kit
Helmet
Rating 3 Licence: Adept, Driving, Bounty Hunter
Monowhip
Walther Palm Pistol (2)
Hidden Arm Slide (2)

Ares Slivergun (2)
2 External Smart gun links
Quick Draw Holster (2)

1695 Nuyen left

2 Knowledge Skills

Contacts, 42 Points
« Last Edit: <03-27-20/1017:36> by Hobbes »

easl

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« Reply #1 on: <03-26-20/2224:04> »
Adept Powers
Increased Reflexes 3
Increased Agility 3

I know this is a point of some dispute, and I'm not sure if it's been errata'd yet, but for the record...

Page 65: "Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments) that they use to purchase adept powers."

According to this section, the build should use 1 pp for adept powers, not 6. The 5 additional points you added to magic with your adjustment points don't count.  But...YMMV...

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <03-26-20/2231:06> »
That has been errata'd, as of the January update.

Regular Adepts (but not MysAds) can go above priority pick on PPs.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #3 on: <03-27-20/1017:12> »
Copy/Pasta'd the gear list from other builds.... the Elf doesn't need Low light on the Contacts and should drop the Combat Axe too. 

Should also work in a Chameleon Suit and Lined Coat for easy non-combat edge gain.

Influence should have 1 Rank/5 Karma, will Edit OP.

Win initiative and open with Anticipate to clear out the chaff.  Called Shot vitals on the hard targets.  Bang, Bang, Bang...  Something gets in your face, Monowhip.  Narco loaded light Crossbow for non-lethal / silent take downs.  8 to 10 dice on Social tests, not too shabby for a Gun Bunny.

Needs to pick up a few B&E skills, Engineering/Locksmith for example.  But those can be rounded out in play.  Mostly Advancement is Foci and eventually some Initiation. 

Mentor Spirit and Knowledge Skills for customization / character flavor choices.  Easily can dial back on the Attribute optimization, say Edge of 4, and pick up another 20 Karma for whatever else you may want.  Or Drop Exceptional Attribute Quality and pick up another negative if you want to drop one of the Impaired Attributes.

Really the Core here is Elf, Max Agility/Charisma, 6 PP, and Guns.  Most of the rest is flexible.  Really tough to go wrong with Elf Gun Bunny Adept.

Edit: lol, and don't forget to buy Ammo.... ;D
« Last Edit: <03-27-20/1031:35> by Hobbes »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <03-27-20/1149:56> »
I think this could work as a Human just as well, perhaps even better, depending on your sensibilities.

Obviously, a Human won't have these values in AGI and CHA.  However, the skills aren't there to really capitalize on the CHA advantage anyway.  Naturally nothing substitutes for Firearms + AGI on a gunbunny, but honestly 18 dice instead of 19 dice isn't the end of the world.  A) it's STILL at least a few dice more than you realistically need, and B) +1 die does not necessarily equal +1 die.  Diminishing returns and all!  And I think once you get beyond 16 dice, you're into diminishing returns.  Consider that +1 dice the elf can have, relative to a human, "costs" you (assuming a swap on metatype and skills priority pick, since metatype B is invalid for humans)

Metatype C still leaves the Human with the same Edge and Magic. By my math there was 2 SAPs put into that above build that went into Agi/CHA, so 2 points have to come back out.  Obviously, CHA.  Net -3 on CHA!

However, the higher skill pick gives +4 skill points.  If the human is throwing into CHA, this more than makes up the difference in one of Con or Influence.  Or matches, and gives another skill point to use elsewhere.

Of course, the human might not be focused on CHA really, and throw instead into something more combat-relevant like Body.  The elf is locked into CHA, and with fewer Skill points. The human can be more flexible, to include even overcoming the elf in a Social skill!  In exchange for "only" having 6 hits on average per Pew Pew, rather than 6 1/3 hits per average.  I think the human option is at least viable.

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #5 on: <03-27-20/1222:49> »
I haven't played 6E yet so I'm not aware of all the practical implications of things while in-play.

Looking at Metatype B vs. Metatype C, how much value is there in running around with 6 Edge vs. 4 Edge? I'm trying to balance that against Skills B, which is only +4 points (not a great upgrade) but could go into Influence 4 and make this a solid secondary Face. That also frees up 5 karma for B&E skills, like Engineering.

Just asking. I don't know all the trade-offs.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <03-27-20/1225:52> »
Personally I consider >5 Edge a downside. If you're at your capacity you can't get full gain in turn 1. 4 is plenty.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #7 on: <03-27-20/1239:14> »
IMO Attribute points >>> Skill Points.   With High Attributes you can pick up a single point in a skill for 5 Karma, and specialize for another 5 and have a reasonable dice pool for 10 Karma.  Long term it's more efficient advancement, and supports branching out into new Skills for those high Attributes.

Re: Human, absolutely can flip Metatype and Skills and have quite similar dice pools if Human is your concept.  It's a minor trade off in the scheme of things.  You can also flip Skills and Resources and come out with a quite tanky Burn out BioAdept, if that's your jam.

Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: <03-27-20/1243:56> »
Personally I consider >5 Edge a downside. If you're at your capacity you can't get full gain in turn 1. 4 is plenty.

Start at 6 Edge, spend 4 Edge on Anticipate, gain 2 Edge during the rest of you turn, Anticipate again on turn 2 to clean up, gain 2 more Edge, end turn 2 with 2 Edge and having made about 10 attacks with full dice pool.  I struggle with that being a downside, but YMMV.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: <03-27-20/1318:42> »
The fact that you MUST spend it before you can gain more. Social situation giving you +2 Edge? Only get 1 due to the cap. Firing at single enemy and getting 2 Edge? Same situation. It forces you to spend asap to not waste gain. Might as well start on 4.
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Tecumseh

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« Reply #10 on: <03-27-20/1351:58> »
I'm aware of the karma efficiency of prioritizing Attributes over Skills, but that's dependent on the game (and the character) lasting long enough and accumulating enough karma for there to be an actual trade-off there. For an Awakened character like this, whose primary advancement will - as Hobbes says - be through foci and initiation, it seems preferable to start with skills on a solid footing rather than requiring karma to round them out in the future. There will be so many other demands on karma that it will be tricky to spare any for skills.

I suppose there are a lot of factors, like "How much combat is there at my table?" and "Is there a primary Face or just me?" and "After Anticipation and everyone else acting, are there enough targets left standing to require Anticipation again in the second initiative pass?"

Hobbes

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« Reply #11 on: <03-27-20/1441:28> »
The fact that you MUST spend it before you can gain more. Social situation giving you +2 Edge? Only get 1 due to the cap. Firing at single enemy and getting 2 Edge? Same situation. It forces you to spend asap to not waste gain. Might as well start on 4.

Then spend the Edge?  Re-roll a die (yours or theirs).  Add Three to your Initiative.  Tactical Roll.  Or spend 2 to toss 1 over to a less Edgey buddy.

Edge gain isn't passive, there should be some kind of action happening that you can influence.  Clearly YMMV, because a GM tossing a surprise two Edge at me isn't something I perceive as a common problem.  Or an actual problem at all.

@Tecumseh, 6th Edition I suspect picking up Expertise and the second Specialization will be fairly common even for Magicrun characters.  There will be some Karma spend on skills eventually for just about any character.  For this build the easy way is to drop the Exceptional Attribute, shuffle the Agility point to Logic or Str and use the 10 Karma to pick up a couple more '1' Skills or Skill + Spec or whatever.  Or even drag a point out of Charisma as well to get every Attribute to 2 or  more and have 20 more Karma for whatever.  As SSDR said, it's just one die, not a big deal.  If being well rounded out of the gate is important to you, do that instead of the maximum attribute efficiency route.  Both totally valid and have sound mechanical reasons.

Lormyr

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« Reply #12 on: <03-29-20/1048:26> »
I'm aware of the karma efficiency of prioritizing Attributes over Skills, but that's dependent on the game (and the character) lasting long enough and accumulating enough karma for there to be an actual trade-off there. For an Awakened character like this, whose primary advancement will - as Hobbes says - be through foci and initiation, it seems preferable to start with skills on a solid footing rather than requiring karma to round them out in the future. There will be so many other demands on karma that it will be tricky to spare any for skills.

I suppose there are a lot of factors, like "How much combat is there at my table?" and "Is there a primary Face or just me?" and "After Anticipation and everyone else acting, are there enough targets left standing to require Anticipation again in the second initiative pass?"

I feel like this perception may have held situational value in 5e, where the cost of individual skills was significantly less than attributes, but in 6e I just can't agree.

Raising a skill will get you 1 bonus die for typically 1-3 types of actions. Raising an attribute will get you 1 bonus die for significantly more types of actions, plus 1 bonus die in core static values that skills don't raise (damage resistance, spell defense, initiative, ect.). As they now cost the same, attributes are always a superior purchase unless you are capped. The sole exception to this might be Strength, as only some athletics use is tied to it, and it has no appreciable static value.

Even on an awakened character where you have no intention of buying anything but magic for the foreseeable future, focusing on attributes will round you out much better than focusing on skills.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #13 on: <03-29-20/1658:29> »
I'm aware of the karma efficiency of prioritizing Attributes over Skills, but that's dependent on the game (and the character) lasting long enough and accumulating enough karma for there to be an actual trade-off there. For an Awakened character like this, whose primary advancement will - as Hobbes says - be through foci and initiation, it seems preferable to start with skills on a solid footing rather than requiring karma to round them out in the future. There will be so many other demands on karma that it will be tricky to spare any for skills.

I suppose there are a lot of factors, like "How much combat is there at my table?" and "Is there a primary Face or just me?" and "After Anticipation and everyone else acting, are there enough targets left standing to require Anticipation again in the second initiative pass?"

I feel like this perception may have held situational value in 5e, where the cost of individual skills was significantly less than attributes, but in 6e I just can't agree.

Raising a skill will get you 1 bonus die for typically 1-3 types of actions. Raising an attribute will get you 1 bonus die for significantly more types of actions, plus 1 bonus die in core static values that skills don't raise (damage resistance, spell defense, initiative, ect.). As they now cost the same, attributes are always a superior purchase unless you are capped. The sole exception to this might be Strength, as only some athletics use is tied to it, and it has no appreciable static value.

Even on an awakened character where you have no intention of buying anything but magic for the foreseeable future, focusing on attributes will round you out much better than focusing on skills.

Agreed.  Post character creation due to how karma costs works people might bump low skills that are linked to high attributes. But at char gen its all attributes until maybe karma spending and even then probably not much in skills a specialization, maybe pick up a core skill you don't want to default in and didn't have a point for but that's it.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #14 on: <03-29-20/2020:13> »
Even on an awakened character where you have no intention of buying anything but magic for the foreseeable future, focusing on attributes will round you out much better than focusing on skills.

Generally speaking, yes, I agree.

But in this situation, we're talking not talking about static Attributes but rather Edge, the quantity of which fluctuates during play. And we're talking about Edge 4 vs. Edge 6, the value of which is debatable (to wit, see the Chandra/Hobbes discussion).

Again, I haven't played 6E so my opinion isn't educated, but it seems like +4 Skills vs. +2 Edge is a plausible trade-off. Not a slam dunk, but a valid consideration between whether more skills or more Edge will better round out a character (again, with many variables like the play style of the table, the skillsets of other PCs in the team, etc.).