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(SR5) elemental dmg

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RickDeckard

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« on: <02-20-20/0241:08> »
I’m so sick of these rule books, or vague books as we call them in my group.

Can someone explain to me the actual DV of elemental dmg? From SR5 p 170 I understand that

acid: wears down armor over time
cold: provides a tiny chance that a piece of armor will shatter (what is the threshold for this??)
fire: chance of target catching fire and suffering minor burn damage 34 years after the fight is over
Electrical: penalty to dice pool and initiative.

Do any of these actually provide a worthwhile damage bonus that justifies e.g. an Adept spending power points on Elemental Damage?

I can reason that electrical should do the same amount of dmg as a taser (this also goes for frills and shock weave which isn’t clarified in the rules either) so 9s.
Fire does 3p +\-1 per round depending on dmg soak.
No idea why I would ever want Acid or Cold dmg?

Also, is elemental dmg in addition to my standard melee or unarmed dmg?

Example: I punch a guy in the face with 1 net hit dealing 7s. Since my first are super conductors he also gets an additional hit of 9s with -5 AP and has to roll for dmg soak twice? And why wouldn’t I just wear shock gloves?

Any clarification with reference to the vague books is welcome!

Reaver

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« Reply #1 on: <02-20-20/0329:05> »
Well, I am going to assume from your question, poorly worded as it is, that you are referring to the elemental adept powers from Street Grimoire, found on pg 170.

On the little red box, on the same page we have:

Quote
There are several powers this section that allow an adept
to deal elemental damage or use an elemental effect, the most
common being acid, cold, electricity, and fire. To understand
how these elements cause damage, see p. 170, SR5.

So that will help to explain the effects (more later) but each power does something, so we will briefly look at each power:

Quote
ELEMENTAL STRIKE
COST: 0.5 PP
ACTIVATION: SIMPLE ACTION
PREREQUISITES: KILLING HANDS
Elemental Strike enhances the damage caused by an
unarmed Killing Hands strike by channeling an elemental
effect into the attack.
.....
Right, so your Killing hands attack is used for the power... (read the rest of the entry to learn more)
Quote
ELEMENTAL BODY
COST: 1 PP
ACTIVATION: COMPLEX ACTION
PREREQUISITES: ELEMENTAL STRIKE
.....
Elemental Body like the Elemental
Strike power, with a DV of (Magic x 2)P and AP
–(Magic x 0.5).
.....

For elemental body, the DV is Magic x2... so that's the power of elemental body. (for a full description of the power, read the entry)

Quote
ELEMENTAL WEAPON
COST: 0.5 PP
ACTIVATION: SIMPLE ACTION
PREREQUISITES: WEAPON FOCI
.....

the power of Elemental weapon is the weapon focus itself.



So now you know the power of each ability... As to what element does... we were referred to pg 170 of the CRB.

Quote
This is damage caused by non-kinetic sources, like acid,
fire, etc. Most of the time you’d look to magic for this
sort of damage, but some mundane weapons and attacks
can deliver added elemental effects.

followed by each element, and their effects.

basically, read each entry for what they do.. but a small highlight:

Quote
Acid Damage
Acid damage is Physical. In addition to its normal damage,
it also reduces the rating of any Armor it hits by 1.....

<read on>
...

Quote
Cold Damage
Cold is just the absence of heat, but it hurts when too
much heat is absent, and calling cold “absent heat”
doesn’t make it any less painful. Cold damage is Physical.
Additionally, cold damage can make armor brittle, liquids
freeze, lubricants gum....

<Read more!>
....


Quote
Electricity Damage
....
characters injured by Electricity
damage include a –1 dice pool penalty on all actions
and Defense Tests
.....

<read more to learn more!>

Quote
Fire Damage
....
When something catches fire, the fire has an initial
Damage Value of 3. This damage is caused at the end of
each Combat Turn, and the DV increases by 1
....

<Sounds spicy!! Read more!>


Get the idea??

Did I assume correctly or did I make an ass out of you and me?
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #2 on: <02-20-20/0348:19> »
I read all that, hence my reference to page 170. Maybe my non-native English skills made that unclear (thank you for rating those, btw).

Several items and powers in various rule books refer to that page for elemental damage. But it doesn’t give me any damage, only an effect. If all those items and powers are only meant to have the effect described, then it would be nice if that was clarified.

Does shock frills and shock weave only give the -1 dice pool and -5 initiative effect, not the taser dmg?

Again, what is the “normal damage” of acid?

What is the damage of a cold attack? (And what is the threshold for the “simple armor roll” to see if armor breaks? No hits, says the text, so I guess an armor jacket just has to roll one hit on 12 dice and it’s a ok.)

Does a flame thrower only do 3P dmg and only do so if the target catches fire? The 3P is specifically for when a target has already caught fire. What is the initial dmg value of a fire weapon? Is a flame thrower damage the same as the elemental attack version of fire damage?

I don’t see any of that explained anywhere.

So to answer your question, you explained all the things I’m already aware of =)
« Last Edit: <02-20-20/0358:41> by RickDeckard »

Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: <02-20-20/0442:27> »
I read all that, hence my reference to page 170. Maybe my non-native English skills made that unclear (thank you for rating those, btw).

Several items and powers in various rule books refer to that page for elemental damage. But it doesn’t give me any damage, only an effect. If all those items and powers are only meant to have the effect described, then it would be nice if that was clarified.

Does shock frills and shock weave only give the -1 dice pool and -5 initiative effect, not the taser dmg?

Again, what is the “normal damage” of acid?

What is the damage of a cold attack? (And what is the threshold for the “simple armor roll” to see if armor breaks?)

Does a flame thrower only do 3P dmg and only do so if the target catches fire? Is a flame thrower damage the same as the elemental attack version of fire damage?

I don’t see any of that explained anywhere.

So to answer your question, you explained all the things I’m already aware of =)

Ok, this is definitely a language thing...


the elemental damage is just a DESCRIPTOR for damage that is not "Kinetic".... So basically... not a punch, kick, explosion, gun shot, Missile... or baiscally any usual firearm or method of attack.... And that most of these will be magical... (and thus a spell, and thus its the power of the spell...)

ON THE FEW EXCEPTIONS, we would refer back tot he item in question.

CRB page 438 has the write up shock frills.

Quote
Shock frills: These strips of “fur” are electrically
charged when activated, standing on end and inflicting
Electricity damage to anyone that touches you. Use Unarmed
Combat to attack with the frills.
The frills hold 10
charges; when attached to a power point, they recharge
one charge per 10 seconds.
Wireless: The shock frills can be activated or deactivated
as a Free Action. They can also recharge by induction,
recharging one charge per hour
So, the damage for shock frills is determined by unarmed combat (see page 184+ for melee combat) With damage code of STR(s).

The attack electrical so we also look at page 170....

Quote
Electricity Damage
.......
An Electricity attack that does damage can stun and
incapacitate the target as well, though if there is no
damage, there is no secondary effect at all.


Secondary effects for characters injured by Electricity
damage include a –1 dice pool penalty on all actions
and Defense Tests, but not Damage Resistance Tests,
for 1 Combat Turn and an immediate Initiative Score reduction
of 5. The dice pool penalty and Initiative Score

......


SO.... The damage of shock frills is determined by an unarmed combat attack, with a base damage of STR(s).....<modified by melee combat result.>

IF all damage is resisted, or the unarmed combat attack fails.. full stop.

IF a single point of damage is done... apply the effects of electrical attacks IN ADDITION to the damage...
Thus the defender would suffer:
    <damage done of the correct type>
      -1 DP to all actions and defense test
     -5 to iniativte
     Other effects as listed on page 170-171

I don't which book Shock weave is from so I can't read it to break it down the same way, but I am sure you get the idea....

if we look at a weapons.. take a look at shock gloves. page 423 CRB:


Shock gloves:  ACC: Physical  REACH:—   DAMAGE: 8S(e)  AP:–5   AVAIL: 6R   PRICE: 550¥

Quote
Shock Gloves: These electrically insulated gloves
have a wire mesh that discharges electric current with
a punch or a simple touch. The gloves deal electricity
damage (p. 170) and are good for ten charges before
they need to be plugged in and recharged (at a rate of
one charge per ten seconds). Attacks with shock gloves
use the Unarmed Combat skill.
Wireless: The shock gloves recharge by induction, regaining
one charge per full hour of wireless-enabled time.


Notice the damage code. It is fixed. Thus this is a melee weapon not affected by strength (Sorry Troll Fans!).
The Damage of Shock gloves is 8s <plus melee combat results>.
IF a single point of damage is done.. then the additional secondary effects kick in....
       
        -1 DP to all actions and defense test
     -5 to iniativte
     Other effects as listed on page 170-171


I don't know of anything off hand that does acid damage other then spells. And spells should be obvious what the power of the attack is... If you point to a book and item, I will help you read it and what you should be looking at.. but in the mean time, lets look at Run and Gun. Page 49-50.. the Shiawase Blazer!!!

This spicy stick of doom spits FIRE!!!

ACC: 6 DV: 10P AP -6 MODE: SA/BF/FA RC: - AMMO 4(c) AVAIL 16f COST 2200 

<Read up on it for all the spicy, melty goodness of this fear stick!>

SO, we know the damage is 10, and its physical...

Resolve combat normally... And refer to "burning, melty, spicy goodness" on page 170 of the CRB. (AKA Fire)

Quote
Fire Damage
Fire damage is Physical.
It can also make things catch
fire.

To determine if something catches fire, roll Armor
Value + Fire Resistance – Fire AP (see Fire Armor Piercing
Ratings table, below). The threshold on this test is
the net hits rolled on the fire-based attack.
If the item succeeds, it is not on fire (for now). Armor accessories
are excluded from the test but the gamemaster may require
them to make their own test.

When something catches fire, the fire has an initial
Damage Value of 3
. This damage is caused at the end of
each Combat Turn, and the DV increases by 1 at the start
of each subsequent Combat Turn
until the item is completely
destroyed or the fire is put out. You can fight the
fire a number of ways (water, smothering, etc.), making
an Agility + Intuition Test and reducing the fire’s DV by
1 for each hit. Remember, as long as the fire is burning
it can ignite any nearby flammables, including furniture,
vehicles, foliage, and elves.

SOOOO.... MR. Elf gets to resisted a 10P+ attack, then check to see if his ears are on fire... If they are.. he has to resist an extra 3DV... which increases as his ears continue to burn..... Or he can stop shooting at me and try to put it out.... (To which you just squirt him again.. and  continue the marshmellow roast..)

Oh, and the building is probably burning.. (environmental modifiers?!?! other hazards!??!)




****

Getting to see what is going on?



Edit:

Spelling.. it goes down when the bottle count goes up... I wonder why??!
« Last Edit: <02-20-20/0449:26> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #4 on: <02-20-20/0457:16> »
Ok, I think I get it then. The descriptions of elemental damage is an effect only. And straight up dmg is tied to either a specific weapon or spell. The secondary effect only takes place in case of a successful attack with the primary weapon. That all makes sense, it’s just horribly explained.

Thanks for clarifying.

Edit: Shock weave is in R&G p. 84 side bar. Not sure what the difference is between Frills and Weave. They seem to do the exact same thing.
« Last Edit: <02-20-20/0502:18> by RickDeckard »

Reaver

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« Reply #5 on: <02-20-20/1407:49> »
yea.. I see it..

Unfortunately, R&G is not the best formatted. For the actual rules for shock weave, we have to go all the way to page 85 red bar, which gives us:

Quote
SHOCK WEAVE
Anyone entering a Grapple or Clinch with someone wearing
active Shock Weave armor must resist 8S(e) damage. The
wearer can also choose to take a Block Action when attacked
and intentionally block with an active Shock Weave plate on
their armor. This test needs to generate at least 2 hits (not 2
net hits) for the Shock Weave to be effective. A glitch means
the character accidentally zaps themselves. This armor
modification cannot be used offensively.
Wireless Bonus: The Block Test only needs to generate 1 hit.

So the weave does 8s(e)

BUT, can not be used offensively, unlike shock frills.

It is used with the block action, meaning it works only against melee attacks. and needs at least 2 hits. After which the weave delivers a 8s shock to the attack (resist normally).

IF a single point of damage is done, apply the  effects of an electrical attack.

So, I guess the difference between weave and frills is their method of use. Frills seems to be used for offensive attacks, and weave with the block action..
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #6 on: <02-21-20/0154:54> »
Yeah this is why I always take the frills. They’re cheaper and work offensively as well. Logically both should work in offense and defense. Shock is shock no matter how it’s delivered.