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Why choose 6th Edition over 5th

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Hobbes

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« on: <01-24-20/1956:58> »
Totally a clickbait title, but stick with me.  Can't take credit for spotting this, Stainless Steel Devil Rat pointed out the Spoof Command matrix action requires Outsider Access to work.

"So what Hobbes, we had Spoof Command in 5e it was conditional at best"

Yes, but in 5e parlance, Outsider Access means no Marks required.   

Need to pop a lock?  Cracking plus Logic vs Firewall plus Data Processing (or Pilot).

Lock slaved to a host?  Same roll.

Need to reboot a camera?  Done.

Sentry Drone?  Shoot that guy.

Slaved to Host, part of a PAN, doesn't matter.  Outsider Access means you can resolve a Hack in a single roll.  Unless it's a data steal on a Host the Hacking Mini-game is basically optional. 

Thanks to Robert aka Banshee for confirming on the Errata team discord.  You may now definitively tell your friends why 6th is better than 5th.

Okay, at least for those of us who play/GM for a lot of Hackers.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <01-24-20/1958:45> »
Lol we can't keep nice things to the evil side of the GM screen, can we Hobbes?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #2 on: <01-24-20/2001:54> »
Hell no, I'm a Players GM   :  )

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <01-25-20/0602:19> »
Yes, action economy for hacking is much improved in SR6.


Note that if you think you will take control of more than one device connected to the same network (PAN or WAN, doesn't matter) before you will reboot then you still might want to try to first gain access to it... Reason is that once you have access all them "individual and illegal Spoof Command actions that might risk generating overwatch score each time you use it" turn into "legal control device actions that don't".


Also note that the effect of Spoof command is also not executed immediately. There is a short delay from you giving the instruct to the device actually take the action on its own (for example ordering a drone to shoot at one of your enemies). The drone will take the action on its own initiative score and use its own ratings while doing this (in this case it would be resolved with a Cracking + Logic vs. Pilot + Firewall of the host or RCC it is slaved to and then it fires on its own using its [Weapon] Targeting autosoft + Sensor rating).

While Control Device will let you take and execute the action directly, yourself (for example controlling a drone to shoot at one of your enemies). You take the action directly on your turn and you use your own ratings (in this case it would be resolved as a single Engineering + Logic test rather than two separate tests).



It was similar in SR5, but in all scenarios it always required an extra "gain access" step to resolve. In SR6 this extra step is no longer needed.

To Spoof Command you first had to gain access on the owner. Once you had access on the owner you could take the Spoof Command without first gaining access on individual devices in the network. If you wished to Spoof Command to another device that belong to another owner (which could be read as another PAN or WAN) you first had to gain access on that owner.

For Control Device you first had to gain access on each individual device. Once you had access on the device you could take the Control Device. If you wished to control another device you had to first gain access to that other device, even if it belonged to the same network (WAN or PAN).



In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.

In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.

Again, less action economy. Much faster to resolve. Much easier to use for both players and GMs.


There are some drawbacks though (in SR6 you can't for example notice if a hacker have access on your device and you can't 'remove' his access as you could in SR5-  but overall matrix rules in SR6 are much better than in any previous edition if you ask me).
« Last Edit: <01-25-20/0613:25> by Xenon »

Hobbes

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« Reply #4 on: <01-25-20/0658:22> »

There are some drawbacks though (in SR6 you can't for example notice if a hacker have access on your device and you can't 'remove' his access as you could in SR5-  but overall matrix rules in SR6 are much better than in any previous edition if you ask me).

Matrix Perception on your own devices/Icons would probably let you know who has Admin Access.  p 178 "The other way to use Matrix Perception would be to analyze one particular icon or search for a hidden icon."  Mind you that RAW that puts you in the weird situation of being your own opponent in an opposed roll.

penllawen

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« Reply #5 on: <01-25-20/0741:46> »
There are some drawbacks though (in SR6 you can't for example notice if a hacker have access on your device and you can't 'remove' his access as you could in SR5-  but overall matrix rules in SR6 are much better than in any previous edition if you ask me).
To remove hacked access, I'd suggest the use of the Reboot Device command on the device running the PAN, which would automatically succeed if it's your own device. That seems reasonably within RAW to me. I'd rule that a single Major action would issue the reboot command and also let you log off gracefully and avoid dumpshock.

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <01-25-20/0742:00> »
Matrix Perception on your own devices/Icons would probably let you know who has Admin Access.
Even if it was possible there is still no 'erase mark' action in 6th.
And just rebooting the device is also not enough. You would need to reboot the entire network.......
(or force the hacker to reboot).

But in the grand scheme of all positive changes this is a minor thing (and depending on how you view it not even an issue really)

FastJack

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« Reply #7 on: <01-25-20/0808:59> »
Matrix Perception on your own devices/Icons would probably let you know who has Admin Access.
Even if it was possible there is still no 'erase mark' action in 6th.

Bullets erase all marks... ;)

Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: <01-25-20/0916:06> »
Removing unwanted Access.  Geek the Hacker certainly works.  Turning off Wireless works, potentially a little slower in 6th than 5th though.

I'm on the fence as to Reboot removing other User/Admin Access.  Mainly because if a secure Host is compromised and Rebooting removes unwanted access, it should be an option for the Spider.  And Rebooting Hosts really isn't covered, and I kinda doubt a Host boots back up in 3 seconds.

But for commlink controlled PANs or regular Devices, I'd let a re-boot remove unwanted Access.  Mind you, while your PAN Master is Rebooting, the formerly protected Devices are on their own. 

Xelian

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« Reply #9 on: <01-28-20/0412:51> »
In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.

In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.


The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
« Last Edit: <01-28-20/0414:34> by Xelian »

Banshee

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« Reply #10 on: <01-28-20/0659:17> »
In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.

In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.


The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?

No, it works just like normal perception... if a group of ninjas are sneaking up on you and you make the perception check with enough hits to beat there stealth rolls you see all of them right ... matrix is the same way. You see everything that you rolled high enough to see.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Hobbes

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« Reply #11 on: <01-28-20/1003:18> »
In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.

In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.


The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?

No, it works just like normal perception... if a group of ninjas are sneaking up on you and you make the perception check with enough hits to beat there stealth rolls you see all of them right ... matrix is the same way. You see everything that you rolled high enough to see.

That should totally go in the FAQ.

Banshee

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« Reply #12 on: <01-28-20/1117:08> »
In SR5 individual devices could run silent and we also had to spot individual device icons one by one.

In SR6 either the entire network is running silent or it doesn't and if it does then we only need to spot the entire network with all its connected devices, once.


The part with the Matrix perception have always been very weird to me. Let's say we are in combat. Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot? One icon with more hits giving more info? All icons running silently? Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?

No, it works just like normal perception... if a group of ninjas are sneaking up on you and you make the perception check with enough hits to beat there stealth rolls you see all of them right ... matrix is the same way. You see everything that you rolled high enough to see.

That should totally go in the FAQ.

That's the plan, we added some verbage in the errata but not enough room for too much detail. Honestly though I think the only people struggling with this so hard are the ones that have previous editions experience confusing things. Previous editions made it way more complicated than it needed to be
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <01-29-20/1218:09> »
Our Decker decide to roll matrix perception for one minor action. What exactly does he spot?
Normally you would not need to roll matrix perception at all before you get to interact with an icon (because in most situations icons in the matrix are immediately obvious and does not require a test to be spotted), but if the network is trying to hide (is running silent) then you would use matrix perception in order to spot it. Just like in previous edition Matrix perception may also be used to spot a specific persona or device (or File) that is currently concealed by Phantom (or Camouflage) Sprite power. This is not much different than spotting someone sneaking around in the shadows (or under the influence of an Invisibility Spell or Concealment Critter Power) with physical perception.

You can also spend an action to observe a target in detail, much like you can spend an action to observe something in detail with physical (or astral) perception. Hits from this test will for example reveal the targets device rating, if a file have a data bomb, which programs a persona is running, its matrix attributes or even if it is a actually living persona rather than a device based persona...



Is a bag of MetaLinks running silently the best defense vs deckers still?
In 5th edition you would normally just take a single matrix perception test to spot a specific persona icon. There were basically only two exceptions to this:
  • If the persona was running silent then it would get to oppose the test.
  • If not and within 100 meters (or within the same host) no test was needed to begin with.

Predator1

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« Reply #14 on: <01-29-20/2311:47> »
6e is easier for gms, i have been running shadowrun since 2nd. There's no perfect ruleset. 6th is off to a rough start though and there's plenty of errata to be done.  I do feel like the matrix is 100% better. Nobody ever wanted to be a decker until this edition.