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What is wrong with spirits?

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #45 on: (19:23:20/10-18-19) »
I still don't know if binding foci at chargen is intended to be allowed or not.

True but itís like 8 karma to bind a force 4 spirit focus. Buy it at char gen bind it after the 2nd run.

CigarSmoker

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« Reply #46 on: (19:52:58/10-18-19) »
Are we talking PC vs spirit or NPC vs spirit. If the former, warn the PCs they're pissing someone off who can do the thing and let them decide.

For me there is no difference, but note: i have posted already 2 chars that can cheese out force 18 spirits from char gen.
I think the mage needs to have a mental image of the "Aura" of the person, so he needs have assened the person in the past for the "Search" service. But i am not sure what the intention of the CRB there. 


2) wards. Spirit can't cross without raising the alarm but the mage can. The mage must physically go to the place before unleashing hell.

In 6th edition any "Awakened" can roll Charisma+ Magic to "astral sneak" trough wards.(p.162) But i think Sprits can do the same if you use a service - "Awakened only" would more or less exlude living beings like Dragons. So spirits wont do it automatically, but they have all the stats necessary. And they can certainly just destroy the ward or push trough raising "alarm".

edit: made the post a bit more reader friendly ^^
« Last Edit: (04:13:00/10-19-19) by CigarSmoker »

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #47 on: (03:56:19/10-19-19) »
Although I dont get why they didnt get rid of their force completely, like spells. Say they start as if they had a powerlevel comparable to force 3, then let the summoners amp up their spirits with 2 drain for +1 on everything

Couldn't agree more, in fact I thought I'd posted just such a house rule, but can't find it now.  I also like the idea, mentioned by Finstersang, that magicians spend character creation magic resources  on getting access to summoning different spirit types, as they do with spells. In 6E apparently every tradition can summon every spirit type, so it would help to have some progression in there.

Uuuh, you should definetely try to find and post your houserule. Ive also read Finstersangs idea of spending some kind of resource on getting access to the specific spirits. Ive been toying with some tweaks there myself-a less costly way would be that if you spent some karma you would gain access to the spirits optional powers. If not then your force 3 spirit wouldnt have any.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #48 on: (05:04:45/10-19-19) »
Quote
All dragons are
capable and powerful magicians, practitioners
of a magical tradition that predates metahumanity.
Quote
To be born Awakened means having
the ability to manipulate mana.
So unless we argue that "characters" means only PCs are capable of astral sneaking, anything with Magic can astrally sneak, which includes Dragons and Spirits.

-- not participating in the debate, just posting rule quotes --
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #49 on: (09:36:21/10-19-19) »
The section "Spirit Etiquette" page 149 seems to be neglected here.
"Since spirits have been known to share their thoughts openly, this reputation can spread. Any time a conjurer deliberately uses a service to cause a spirit they conjured significant discomfort or disruption, decrease the characterís Reputation by 1."
Yes, this is very subjective. GM's rule will play a strong role here.

In addition a section "Spirit Range", page 148
"Spirits try to stay close to their conjurer. If they get more than (conjurerís Magic rating x 100) meters from their conjurer, they will try to return within that range unless they have specifically been directed not to."
Could spirits view a conjurer who summons them but sends them away as a conjurer who is a coward and doesn't enjoy the presence of the spirit ? They could, it's very subjective.

My reading on this is that if a conjurer demands from spirits to be personal murderers, or excessively uses spirits for direct combat only, that will have an effect on conjurers reputation. With that in mind, Reputation goes both ways, so "good" spirits would be less keen to aid the conjurer, while "bad" spirits would be super happy to go into material plane and murder bunch of meta-humans. Could continuous summoning of "I win button" spiral the conjurer down the rabbit hole ?
For example loosing spirit affinity, or mentor spirit qualities, "good" spirits could get additional dice pools for resisting.

If a player wants to go that way, sure! Dark arts can be very tempting and there are plenty of toxic and twisted mages who can summon nasty horrors. Will that have further consequences, like exclusion out of magical societies and bounties, and at the same time inclusion into cults and magical terrorism jobs ? Absolutely, it can be an interesting path of role-play exploration.

Yet we can not forget the group and the context in which such a player (character) behaviour occurs! If the whole group is fine to explore the other side of the barricade, that's awesome! Burnouts, toxic adepts, cyberzombie Streetsams or addicted riggers, as far as everyone has fun.
If the group does not want to go that way, there will be a problem between players (and characters) and that has to be solved outside of rules. If people break the game law, there are legal consequences designed by the norms of the society in which such a behaviour occurs. In a role playing game, such norms and consequences for disregarding them should stem from us, the role-playing society, players as well as characters.

I don't want to argue against or pro mechanical design of spirit powers, but it seems that it is more about, how to handle a cheesy player who aims to build a character upon constantly exploiting the same tactic. ( Big dice pools of dedicated Conjurers who can than boost attributes to neglect drains thus having super spirits). Rules are allowing it, but the cheese player is not playing alone. There is the GM and there is the group.
I don't propose a solution for everyone, home tables will be easier to handle than convention tables I guess.
« Last Edit: (10:46:54/10-19-19) by PatrolDeer »

Lormyr

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« Reply #50 on: (10:28:39/10-19-19) »
I don't want to argue against or pro mechanical design of spirit powers, but it seems that it is more about, how to handle a cheesy player who aims to build a character upon constantly exploiting the same tactic. ( Big dice pools of dedicated Conjurers who can than boost attributes to neglect drains thus having super spirits). Rules are allowing it, but the cheese player is not playing alone. There is the GM and there is the group.

There is nothing wrong with a player building a character to do something exceptionally well, or wielding the mechanics the game provides efficiently. There is no right or wrong way to build characters or play the game.

If a player has disruptive behavior then that is another matter entirely.

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #51 on: (11:17:58/10-19-19) »
I don't say clever build has to be banned form the group!
It depends on the context, in this case the group and its GM as well as role play and character background.

If a Conjurer "spams" force XY spirits and safeguards himself to drain via increase attribute as a response to all obstacles the group has to overcome, I see it as potentially disruptive. Than I would ask the player what leads his character to act in such way in the first place. Does the character have justifiable background or is the story narrating itself the way that using high powered spirits seems as the best and only option do deal with every encounter ?
If I can spot that the character doesn't have justifiable reason to act in such way, I would talk to the player and find out his reasoning behind such decision for a character choice, thus I would be able to get into deeper understanding of the player as well as the character and possibly adjust my campaign building.
I also should ask other players in the group, to find out if the conjurers recurring tactic is fine with them, because this might lead to problems among the players and pose a threat toward the integrity of the group. If everyone is fine, sure, back to adjusting the campaign, if someone has a problem, for example one player is being overshadowed, some compromise should happen between players and my role as a GM is to facilitate such dialogue.

If a Conjurer does swap tactics in response to changing nature of obstacles, uses the high powered spirit in a creative way, sometimes for its critter powers, sometimes to attack, sometimes to watch the groups back and at the same time the conjurer uses buff spells on other party members, again, in response to different situations, I have no problem with a clever build.

Still I don't argue pro or against mechanical design of spirits in general, just providing food for thought on how I would try to operate in a situation.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #52 on: (14:26:08/10-19-19) »
Being good at summoning is a pretty normal goal for a age. Knowing the improved attribute spell is pretty normal. Itís only rational youíd cast it on yourself to reduce drain. I donít expect my players to intentionally act dumb.

You can set up some ground rules on spirits in how they react to being summoned. Like any spirit with a force higher than your magic resents it. Having a combat spirit like fire spirits be against being sent to fight seems a stretch though. But yeah go for it if you think itís needed. Just set it up before game start.  Great for home games but Problem is how does that work in missions.

The ideal though is the GM isnít needed for this.  Spirit summoning is balanced without it.  No game will catch everything but I think there is a different feel for putting breaks on hidden loopholes people find as opposed to obvious tactics from the core rules.

penllawen

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« Reply #53 on: (04:52:38/10-20-19) »
Being good at summoning is a pretty normal goal for a age. Knowing the improved attribute spell is pretty normal. Itís only rational youíd cast it on yourself to reduce drain. I donít expect my players to intentionally act dumb.
Iíd go further. The rules of the game are also, to the characters, the rules of physics. The characters have an understanding of optimal strategies. In-game, spirits are powerful; so in-game, everyone who can is going to want spirits around.

Quote
The ideal though is the GM isnít needed for this.  Spirit summoning is balanced without it.  No game will catch everything but I think there is a different feel for putting breaks on hidden loopholes people find as opposed to obvious tactics from the core rules.
Strongly agree. Moderation of PC abilities via GM fiat is always going to exist; no RPG ruleset can cover every bizarre situation the players will get themselves into. But if youíre relying on it constantly as the only way to deal with a common situation, itís a sign the rules are missing something to cover this more formally.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #54 on: (11:23:25/10-28-19) »
Although I dont get why they didnt get rid of their force completely, like spells. Say they start as if they had a powerlevel comparable to force 3, then let the summoners amp up their spirits with 2 drain for +1 on everything

Couldn't agree more, in fact I thought I'd posted just such a house rule, but can't find it now.  I also like the idea, mentioned by Finstersang, that magicians spend character creation magic resources  on getting access to summoning different spirit types, as they do with spells. In 6E apparently every tradition can summon every spirit type, so it would help to have some progression in there.

Uuuh, you should definetely try to find and post your houserule. Ive also read Finstersangs idea of spending some kind of resource on getting access to the specific spirits. Ive been toying with some tweaks there myself-a less costly way would be that if you spent some karma you would gain access to the spirits optional powers. If not then your force 3 spirit wouldnt have any.

Found my post - sadly, it wasn't a fleshed out ruleset, just essentially agreeing with you in concept:

Quote from: MercilessMing
Personally, and we're just talking home rules here, I wish they had "eliminated" force for spirits like they did for spells.  Take the stats for a Force X spirit, and let that be what you always get when you summon that type of spirit.  Then add an Amp system to buff your spirit with optional powers and stats.

If I was going to flesh this out, I'd start with the idea of Minor, Major, and Greater spirits, so we have variety in functional power level.  Major spirits are what you summon for most gameplay purposes, while Minor spirits are like Watcher-level or force 1 power (and could even just be Watchers).  Greater spirits would be major battlefield threat level, akin to a tank or large monster or something.  Off-limits to PCs without special story considerations from the GM.

Next I'd decide on what Force is balanced for the type of role Major Spirits play, erring on the side of a little weak to leave room for Amps.  Let's say 4.
Then I'd want to tweak individual powers and stats at this level, especially ITNW.

Next, what do Amps do - +1 Drain per Amp is consistent with spellcasting, so what are appropriate bonuses for +1 Drain? 
+1 optional power, + a skill, +1 to stats?  This would be the toughest part.

Lastly, decide on the Spirit Limit.  I like the idea that you have a number of spirit "slots" equal to your Magic.  Minor spirits take 1 slot, Major take 2-3 slots, and Greater take all your slots.