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[SR6] Sustained Costs of Spells

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jacx7

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« on: (19:47:11/10-12-19) »
Did not find anything with the search function so here is my question:

Does sustaining a spell like Increase Attribute modify its Drain-Pool the moment it is cast/sustained - or at all?

CRB p.132
Quote
Whenever a spellcaster is sustaining a spell, they take a –2 dice pool penalty to any action test for each spell they sustain.
The exact wording "action test" occurs no where else in the CRB so we have to interpret. Does it mean minor & major actions?

Resisting drain ist part of the major action Cast Spell.

Let's have a quick example:
A Shaman casts Increase Attribute (Strength) on the Streetsam.
After succesfully rolling Spellcasting+Magic (-1) with 3 net hits granting the Sammy a +3 Bonus to Strength.

Whats the order now?
1) He tries to resist the drain with a CH+WIL (5) test.
2) He now (of course) decides that he will sustain the spell so its effect can take place.

Or is it the other way around?

1) He now decides that he will sustain the spell.
2) He tries to resist the drain with a CH+WIL (5) test [with a dice pool reduced by 2(?)].


He also wants to cast Increase Attribute (Agility) on him.
He Rolls Spellcasting+Magic (-1), reducing his dicepool by 2 because he is still sustaining the first spell. Again he tries to resist the drain.
Is his CH+WIL dicepool also reduced by the penalty from sustaining the first spell?

I would say yes although it seems kind of rough to outlive, if you wanted to sustain numerous spells on a few of your runner friends.

What are your thoughts?

ZeroSum

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« Reply #1 on: (20:30:43/10-12-19) »
If you think that's complicated, now consider the magician casts Increase Attribute (Charisma) on himself. Does the increase to his drain attribute take place before or after he has to deal with drain? :D

EDIT: You may have posted this in the wrong subforum, by the way. It's currently in the Character Creation & Critique subforum, not the Rules subforum.

To answer your question, attribute-only tests are still tests, so I would say the sustaining penalty takes effect after the drain resist.

The spellcasting test is divided into three phases:
1. Adjust the spell
2. Roll a Spellcasting test
3. Deal with drain

The way I'm reading it, only when all three steps have been completed does the spell take effect. I cannot find a definitive statement either way that confirms this, however, and it is possible that the effect of the spell should take place immediately after the spellcasting test.

The difference between the two readings are two-fold:
1. If the spell is successful before the drain test, sustaining penalties would apply immediately, but a spell would also be successful even if the magician knocks themselves out from the drain
2. If the spell is not successful until after the drain test, sustaining penalties do not apply until the next spell is cast, but failing to deal with drain means the spell is unsuccessful.

If anyone can find confirmation either way I'd love to hear it.
« Last Edit: (20:37:45/10-12-19) by ZeroSum »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: (20:35:08/10-12-19) »
Resisting drain isn't an action in itself, simply the result of one, just like soak isn't, so I wouldn't apply the penalty there. I am surprised the language used doesn't cover defense tests by the way. (Incidentally, Damage Resistance phrasing on p38 means injury penalties apply to Drain tests, which surprises me as well.)
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #3 on: (21:23:29/10-12-19) »
Resisting drain isn't an action in itself, simply the result of one, just like soak isn't, so I wouldn't apply the penalty there. I am surprised the language used doesn't cover defense tests by the way. (Incidentally, Damage Resistance phrasing on p38 means injury penalties apply to Drain tests, which surprises me as well.)

Yeah that is one where I'm not sure if its intentional or not.

jacx7

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« Reply #4 on: (21:36:07/10-12-19) »
Thanks for your replies - reported to be moved to Rules and Such.

I agree that it is not stated that sustaining a spell is part of casting it and thus would be the next step after casting.
So, since drain is the last step of spellcasting drain appears to happen before sustaining.

Sustaining of Increase Attribute is a special case, because i belive you can cast a Fireball that hits its target and you die from the drain afterwards.
The spell-effect takes place before drain.

Projecting this to sustained spells, sustaining would have to happen before drain.

If you exclude drain from the equation this is glady no longer relevant for the initial question, if sustaining a spell makes drain resistance harder for the same spell.



However the Before/After discussion stays on, for when you increase an attribute on your own character that raises your drain test dicepool.

Also a really good point with the condition monitor effecting drain. We can have a discussion but this has to be clarified/errated.

Looking forward for german CRB in 2 weeks and further errata.

jacx7

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« Reply #5 on: (21:40:43/10-12-19) »
Also interesting:
If you can afford to sustain multiple Increase Attribute Charisma spells, can you apply all of them to one character?

If you always manage a +4 increase, and sustaining just does -2 on your rolls, you can potentially stack unlimited +2s.
« Last Edit: (21:44:58/10-12-19) by jacx7 »

ZeroSum

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« Reply #6 on: (21:44:48/10-12-19) »
Also interesting:
If you can afford to sustain multiple Increase Attribute Charisma spells, can you apply all of the to one character?

If you always manage a +4 increase, and sustaining just does -2 on your rolls, you can potentially stack unlimited +2s.
The maximum augmentation for attributes is +4. I'm away from books right now, but this is explicitly stated.

jacx7

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« Reply #7 on: (21:49:50/10-12-19) »
Also interesting:
If you can afford to sustain multiple Increase Attribute Charisma spells, can you apply all of the to one character?

If you always manage a +4 increase, and sustaining just does -2 on your rolls, you can potentially stack unlimited +2s.
The maximum augmentation for attributes is +4. I'm away from books right now, but this is explicitly stated.

You are right! CRB p.37
Quote
Various things modify attributes, such as spells and gear, but a character’s adjusted attribute can never be higher than their current attribute rank +4.

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: (05:47:30/10-13-19) »
As I read it you apply the effect of the spell when you roll the spellcasting test (in step 2), before you deal with drain (in step 3).
- That if drain knock you out you will still first apply the spell effect.
- That if you increase the drain attribute then you will use your augmented attribute value when resisting drain



If you cast the same spell on the same target you would (at least in previous editions) just apply the strongest version of the spell (not stacking both on top of each other).

SR6 doesn't really say, but since both attributes and skills are limited by a maximum augmented value of +4 so I guess it it doesn't really matter if you treat them as if they stack or if you only take the strongest one.... (but if you let spells stack then you will get a few odd cases when it comes to illusion spells and manipulation spells)

Lormyr

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« Reply #9 on: (07:46:47/10-13-19) »
SR6 doesn't really say, but since both attributes and skills are limited by a maximum augmented value of +4 so I guess it it doesn't really matter if you treat them as if they stack or if you only take the strongest one

I read that quite differently. We have:
- Attributes, and things which augment them (example: muscle toner).
- Skills, and things which augment them (example: adept improved ability).
- Total dice pools, and things which augment them (example: smart gun die bonus to attack rolls).

All three of those things are distinctly separate, with the first two having their own augmented maximum. So you could potentially have an adept making an attack roll with agility that has a +4 augmentation and close combat that has another +4 augmentation.

If the intent is that no dice pool can result in being modified by greater than +4 then the language is in dire need of a re-write for clarification.

Edit: Oh, I think you were referring to just stacking the two +2 increase charisma spells, not stacking an augmented attribute with an augmented skill. My bad!
« Last Edit: (07:48:56/10-13-19) by Lormyr »

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: (07:58:15/10-13-19) »
OP (and me replying to OP) was talking about casting the same spell twice, such as two Improved Attribute Charisma spells on the same target.

I would would apply the one with most hits rather than stacking them on top of each other.

(but you got that with your Edit I think)

Lormyr

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« Reply #11 on: (08:02:06/10-13-19) »
Yeah, reading comprehension was a bit late to the party on that on. :p

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: (06:07:17/10-14-19) »
I wish Pegasus was a reliable source. =/ I still remember their RCC errata in CRB SR5 being wrong trendwise. And like I mentioned, I despise the price edits they did when they made Parageology 5th edition: They multiplied everything pricewise with 2.8, since that was the Orichalcum increase from SR4 to SR5. Nevermind that when you have a dram costing 1m, it's already plenty expensive and there's no reason to compare to Orichalcum and up the price to 2.8m... Ruined every chance I had at using something in my game without houseruling out their stupidity.
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ZeroSum

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« Reply #13 on: (10:12:35/10-14-19) »
I would maintain that Pegasus is still a far more reliable source than Catalyst.

Isolated incidents aside, the overall quality of life improvements and built-in Errata, which in the past was cleared through Catalyst, represents a potentially significant enhancement over the English language releases.

Lormyr

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« Reply #14 on: (10:45:55/10-14-19) »
houseruling out their stupidity.

Now now Michael, let's not go being all toxic now! How will you be able to get back on the high horse like that!?