[Ghost Rigger]

"there are a number of scenarios where armor will neither generate you edge nor deny your attacker edge."

Still not the same as literally doing nothing. Hyperbole doesn't suit y'all.

Does armor do anything other than generate edge in 6e? Maybe it can turn lethal damage into stun damage like in previous editions, but it doesn't even do that in all the scenarios I've listed.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A big one is serving as a platform upon which armor mods can be placed.  The OPTION to have, say, Electricity Resistance still counts for something even if you decline to have that mod.

[Ghost Rigger]

Okay, but how much does that do? Of the armor mods that cannot be replicated by other gear, how many of them just alter DR against certain attack types and thus might be as situationally useless as armor is in general?

[penllawen]

A fun[1] consequence of the all-or-nothing AR-vs-DR thing is how both AR and DR spaces are not evenly populated with all possible values, so the usefulness of an extra AR or DR point is variable.

Consider a Body 6 character with an armoured jacket, for a combined DR of 10. If you look through the book, you'll find (I think, from memory) no weapons that can have AR of exactly 15, even if you put combinations of mods like AR-boosting ammo or bipods and the like. So this character will get no utility out of adding a bike helmet. "I only got Edge because I wore my lucky helmet!" cannot mathematically happen. But a weaker character, with less Body, they might get situations where the helmet is what tips them over the edge. You can play similar games when trading off one armour type against another.

This works in reverse, too. At Close range, the Ares Alpha has an AR of 4, whereas the Colt M23 has 5. The Colt has an advantage, at first glance. But when will it count for anything? Only when the attacker's DV is exactly 9. How often will that happen? Rarely. This pattern is repeated through the tables, both across guns and also when looking at how a gun's AR value changes with range. Small AR changes in the middle of the range might count sometimes. But small changes at the high end or low end? Ignore them. It'll never make any mechanical difference. The Ares Predator's AR is 10/10/8. How often does losing two points of AR at medium range make a difference to you as a shooter? Only when the target's DV is 4/5 (in which case they're not very interesting targets) or 12/13 (which is so high it'll rarely come up; it's troll-in-FBA territory.) In practice, you could make the Predator's stats 10/10/10 and play an entire campaign and it would never make any difference at all.

This has knock-on effects everywhere. For example, APDS ammo will be a lot more useful at a very narrow range of base weapon AR, where the +2 AR it contributes drives you past the breakpoint and means you're getting a lot more Edge than you were without it. In those guns, at those ranges, the -1 DV it also gives you might seem like a reasonable tradeoff. But at other ranges, or with other guns, all its effect will be lost. You should never put APDS in a sniper rifle, for example -- you're already earning Edge because of its high base AR.

In Shadowrun, the cost of wearing heavier armour or switching to fancier ammo is always well understood - in nuyen and in terms of concealability. In 5e, the benefits are also well understood: players quickly grasp that heavier armour = more dice rolled, and more dice rolled almost always has utility. But in 6e, the benefit of trading up to a heavier armour type is variable, depending on your Body and your current armour type, and I think that's very unintuitive.

[1] not fun

[paw9000]

Armor Mods seem a lot more powerful in 6e vs 5e. 
Example: Fire resistance in 6e cancels the Burning status.  In 5e it just added to the rating of fire resistance to the armor value for resisting fire.

[Lormyr]

A big one is serving as a platform upon which armor mods can be placed.  The OPTION to have, say, Electricity Resistance still counts for something even if you decline to have that mod.

That's fair, but it does still leave one in the reality of the use of the your armor and/or mods being only of situational value.

Armor is only of use if at least one of the following is true:

- The bonus received from it denies your attacker edge gain.
- The bonus received from it allows you to gain defensive edge.
- One of the mods you added is triggered by you being struck by the appropriate attack type.

In just my stress test both of my trolls ran into numerous situations where none of the above was applying. I am not saying armor is always useless. I am saying that it is possible, and even common on some builds, where it is useless.

[Hobbes]

"They call me Trollkini..."   

[ZeroSum]

A fun[1] consequence of the all-or-nothing AR-vs-DR thing is how both AR and DR spaces are not evenly populated with all possible values, so the usefulness of an extra AR or DR point is variable.

Consider a Body 6 character with an armoured jacket, for a combined DR of 10. If you look through the book, you'll find (I think, from memory) no weapons that can have AR of exactly 15, even if you put combinations of mods like AR-boosting ammo or bipods and the like. So this character will get no utility out of adding a bike helmet. "I only got Edge because I wore my lucky helmet!" cannot mathematically happen. But a weaker character, with less Body, they might get situations where the helmet is what tips them over the edge. You can play similar games when trading off one armour type against another.

This works in reverse, too. At Close range, the Ares Alpha has an AR of 4, whereas the Colt M23 has 5. The Colt has an advantage, at first glance. But when will it count for anything? Only when the attacker's DV is exactly 9. How often will that happen? Rarely. This pattern is repeated through the tables, both across guns and also when looking at how a gun's AR value changes with range. Small AR changes in the middle of the range might count sometimes. But small changes at the high end or low end? Ignore them. It'll never make any mechanical difference. The Ares Predator's AR is 10/10/8. How often does losing two points of AR at medium range make a difference to you as a shooter? Only when the target's DV is 4/5 (in which case they're not very interesting targets) or 12/13 (which is so high it'll rarely come up; it's troll-in-FBA territory.) In practice, you could make the Predator's stats 10/10/10 and play an entire campaign and it would never make any difference at all.

This has knock-on effects everywhere. For example, APDS ammo will be a lot more useful at a very narrow range of base weapon AR, where the +2 AR it contributes drives you past the breakpoint and means you're getting a lot more Edge than you were without it. In those guns, at those ranges, the -1 DV it also gives you might seem like a reasonable tradeoff. But at other ranges, or with other guns, all its effect will be lost. You should never put APDS in a sniper rifle, for example -- you're already earning Edge because of its high base AR.

In Shadowrun, the cost of wearing heavier armour or switching to fancier ammo is always well understood - in nuyen and in terms of concealability. In 5e, the benefits are also well understood: players quickly grasp that heavier armour = more dice rolled, and more dice rolled almost always has utility. But in 6e, the benefit of trading up to a heavier armour type is variable, depending on your Body and your current armour type, and I think that's very unintuitive.

[1] not fun

Interesting analysis, thank you for this.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

If you're wearing a bullet-proof vest, it "should" count for nothing if you're shot in the head or leg, right?  Neither 5e nor 6we really worried about locations, but still It's an inherently unrealistic abstraction made in the name of a playable game. Presumably this particular unrealistic abstraction was ok in 5e?

Armor being so less effective in 6we makes sense to me, partly for this reason.  If the play of AR to DR resulted in the armor having had no effect on edge gain/denial, then just maybe you were shot in an unprotected area where armor "shouldn't" have mattered anyway.

[Hobbes]

If you're wearing a bullet-proof vest, it "should" count for nothing if you're shot in the head or leg, right?  Neither 5e nor 6we really worried about locations, but still It's an inherently unrealistic abstraction made in the name of a playable game. Presumably this particular unrealistic abstraction was ok in 5e?

Armor being so less effective in 6we makes sense to me, partly for this reason.  If the play of AR to DR resulted in the armor having had no effect on edge gain/denial, then just maybe you were shot in an unprotected area where armor "shouldn't" have mattered anyway.

Or in the case of high AR vs low DR, it's a Sniper Rifle vs. a Leather Jacket.  Leather Jacket or t-shirt, really doesn't matter. 

Or Low AR vs High DR, it's a .22 vs a Kevlar vest.  Doesn't really matter if the Kevlar covers arms and Legs, or if the target had a helmet on.

Once you've crossed the threshold of No Edge, more Armor doesn't matter.  Once you've crossed the threshold of Gained Edge, less Armor or more AR doesn't matter. 

All just abstractions.

Much like in 5e with 40+ dice of Soak vs small damage values.  You get a bunch of extra hits that didn't matter.  Or when you've blasted a Mook into overflow, really doesn't matter if you've done 15 boxes or 18.

Weather or not you like 6e's particular abstractions is clearly subjective. 

[Shinobi Killfist]

Armor Mods seem a lot more powerful in 6e vs 5e. 
Example: Fire resistance in 6e cancels the Burning status.  In 5e it just added to the rating of fire resistance to the armor value for resisting fire.

More annoying as well. Another fiddly bit to keep track of.

[Michael Chandra]

If you're wearing a bullet-proof vest, it "should" count for nothing if you're shot in the head or leg, right?  Neither 5e nor 6we really worried about locations, but still It's an inherently unrealistic abstraction made in the name of a playable game. Presumably this particular unrealistic abstraction was ok in 5e?

Armor being so less effective in 6we makes sense to me, partly for this reason.  If the play of AR to DR resulted in the armor having had no effect on edge gain/denial, then just maybe you were shot in an unprotected area where armor "shouldn't" have mattered anyway.

Well technically there were socks that gave extra armor against attacks to the feet and ankles.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Most notable was the Secure-tech Protective gear, which didn't stack with armor in its given locations. Only, since 5e didn't bother with locations you had to guess/infer what armor protected what.  Sure, a vest only protects the torso, but does a Synergist Suit protect arms and/or legs?  That's one of the 5e errata we still gotta straighten out...

[Lormyr]

If you're wearing a bullet-proof vest, it "should" count for nothing if you're shot in the head or leg, right?  Neither 5e nor 6we really worried about locations, but still It's an inherently unrealistic abstraction made in the name of a playable game. Presumably this particular unrealistic abstraction was ok in 5e?

Armor being so less effective in 6we makes sense to me, partly for this reason.  If the play of AR to DR resulted in the armor having had no effect on edge gain/denial, then just maybe you were shot in an unprotected area where armor "shouldn't" have mattered anyway.

Logically your position makes great sense. In terms of game mechanic consistency, I believe it is less so.

When a character is attacked, xyz happens. Xyz will always happen in the same order, unless a new element is added to alter it.

Standard xyz is compare AR to DR, then attack test vs. defense test, then if hit, soak. With the game consistent standard, armor worn is static boost and never altered, and the precise location struck is irrelevant to the result of the attack beyond what your attack form says happens (damage, status effect, ect.).

We have several edge actions and minor/major actions, such as called shot, that reflect trying to get around armor or targeting a specific location. They have specific game mechanics. All good there.

Liking or disliking the system is also all good. I just want to hear people acknowledge that there is in fact situations where worn armor will do nothing whatsoever for you when it both logically and within the confines of game consistency should do something, rather than tell me that my acknowledgement of that reality is just hyperbole or something else dismissively similar.

Is that good or bad? I leave that for each person to judge themselves, but saying it is not a thing that happens is both ignorant and dismissive. That is directed at Chandra, not you SSD.

Edit: Reinstating the mechanic that an attack with less AR than the targets DR results in stun damage instead of physical would be a decent way of making armor feel like it always helped, even if not with actually reducing damage like I personally would prefer.

[Ghost Rigger]

If you're wearing a bullet-proof vest, it "should" count for nothing if you're shot in the head or leg, right?  Neither 5e nor 6we really worried about locations, but still It's an inherently unrealistic abstraction made in the name of a playable game. Presumably this particular unrealistic abstraction was ok in 5e?

Standard attacks in 5e are assumed to target the center of mass, and Run&Gun introduced both called shots to specific body parts and gear that provided armor on specific body parts. If you shoot someone in the leg or the head, you're fully in the right to argue that their ballistic vest doesn't provide any protection. And before you ask how helmets and other gear provides bonus armor when standard attacks target your center of mass: sometimes people don't hit where they were aiming but still hit another part of the target. The more of your body that is covered, the less likely it is that your opponent will have a lucky miss.