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6th - Shotguns

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #15 on: <10-07-19/1843:40> »
I haven't heard of any other books coming out soon. Do you have a list of what it coming out other than the list they have on Catalyst?

No, but I tend to obsessively watch interviews CGL gives.  There's a FB post from the Line Developer announcing the combat book, and an interview on youtube teased that Rigger 6th edition is slated for Gen Con next year.

They're word from the man himself, but there's no assurances that plans/deadlines can't change.

And of course there's the "Officially" announced plotbook titled 30 Nights coming up, too.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #16 on: <10-07-19/1936:19> »
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.
Did you just unironically suggest putting a scope on a shotgun?
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ZeroSum

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« Reply #17 on: <10-07-19/2029:54> »
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.
Did you just unironically suggest putting a scope on a shotgun?
Put a silencer on it too!

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #18 on: <10-07-19/2345:59> »
MADNESS. This edition has robbed us all of our sanity.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Ajax

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« Reply #19 on: <10-29-19/0647:55> »
Did you just unironically suggest putting a scope on a shotgun?

Scopes for shotguns is very much a real thing. From red-dot sights for rapid target acquisition for varmint hunting (and for home defense), high magnification scopes for for deer hunting), or something in between for duck hunting or sporting clays.

Truth be told, Shadowrun's early editions grossly overstated how much spread shotguns have. Per SR2 p. 95: "The user of the shotgun can set the choke of the weapon at anywhere from 2 to 10. What this umber determines is how quickly the shot spreads. For every number of meters equal to the choke setting that the shot travels, it will spread one meter to either side of the center line of fire. That means a shotgun firing with a choke of 2 would catch targets along a one-meter-wide path for two meters, than a two-meter-wide path for another two meters, and so on. (The example continues, but I'm cutting it off here. -Ajax)"

That is a ludicrous amount of spread. In reality, a 12 gauge shotgun using birdshot with 0 Constriction cylinder bore choke should average a 1.5 meter spread at 40 meters... and that's about as wide as you can get, without risking life and limb with some sort of "duckfoot choke" that Bubba the Methhead juryrigged in his basement.

I'm not saying SR6's shotgun rules are perfect (if anything, I'd up all of their DV's a pip or two and change the way flechette ammo works) but the older editions had their own silliness to them too.
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penllawen

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« Reply #20 on: <10-29-19/0710:56> »
Truth be told, Shadowrun's early editions grossly overstated how much spread shotguns have.
Well, you could argue that the vast, vast majority of media - be it TV, film, videogames, TTRPGs, etc - all vastly overstate shotgun spread. And then you could further argue if Shadowrun being true to the movies rather than true to real life is a feature or a bug... YMMV but I don't think it's obviously a bad thing that Shadowrun works this way.

Ajax

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« Reply #21 on: <10-29-19/0757:29> »
Shadowrun has always been a bit schizophrenic about whether it is a system meant to emulate cinematic action-movie logic, a system meant to simulate real world physics, or something in between... Kind of the charm, I guess.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #22 on: <10-29-19/0815:45> »
Why'd you bring a shotgun to the party?
Why'd you bring a shotgun to the party?
Everybody's got one, there's nothing new about it
Want to make a statement?
You should have come without it!
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skalchemist

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« Reply #23 on: <10-29-19/0953:09> »
Apparently there are scopes custom made for shotguns, not just any scope will do...

https://www.dailyshooting.com/best-shotgun-scope/

It makes sense with slugs on reflection. 

Shadowjack

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« Reply #24 on: <10-29-19/1002:07> »
Shotguns can use bipods and tripods but are those realistic options? It strikes me as quite odd to whip out a stand and start firing at medium or shorter ranges. Wouldn't you just be better off doing the same thing with assault rifles? I picture shotguns in Shadowrun as being powerful in short to medium ranges and having some AOE capabilities. Additionally, I assume you can't use bipods and tripods from behind cover.
« Last Edit: <10-29-19/1004:23> by Shadowjack »
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Ajax

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« Reply #25 on: <10-29-19/1424:01> »
Shotguns can use bipods and tripods but are those realistic options? It strikes me as quite odd to whip out a stand and start firing at medium or shorter ranges. Wouldn't you just be better off doing the same thing with assault rifles? I picture shotguns in Shadowrun as being powerful in short to medium ranges and having some AOE capabilities. Additionally, I assume you can't use bipods and tripods from behind cover.

Just like with scopes, shotgun bipeds are a real thing, most commonly used for turkey hunting or other situations where you need to remain prone or crouched for extended periods.

And you absolutely should be able to use a bipod or tripod from behind cover! That’s arguably the best way to use them.  Bipods or tripods permit the user to easily rest their weapon on objects, like a wall, reducing their fatigue and increasing accuracy and stability:








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Shadowjack

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« Reply #26 on: <10-29-19/1448:45> »
@Ajax That's cool to learn and see, thank you! So, in Shadowrun, would people actually just deploy one of these at 40 meters and start firing while stationary? I know it's a game but man that seems highly unrealistic. Afaik there is no drawback to doing so.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #27 on: <10-29-19/1509:52> »
Yes, you'd set up 40 plus Meters away and start shooting if you can.

Hunters will take shots at 100+ meters with slugs or rifles at larger game.  Deer/Elk and whatnot.  Ducks or Geese if you're a good shot and/or have lots of ammo to burn.  Personally I can't hit anything that far out though   :D

Infantry engagements are sometimes at city block+ type of ranges although mostly the small arms fire is covering/suppressing fire.  Hits are more accidental at longer ranges.  You're just trying to keep them pinned down while the Maneuver element gets in closer.  Or till the Artillery/Air Strike/Tanks get there.

Shadowrun engagements are probably more like police/swat type of actions though.  Few on Few or Few on one.  Squad level stuff isn't particularly applicable when you're trying to take down that Halloweener right there with the Moltov. 

Ajax

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« Reply #28 on: <10-29-19/1732:36> »
40 meters is only 131 feet or to put that into easier to visualize terms, roughly the distance from one side to the other of the typical four-lane highway. A bit on the far for most shotguns, if firing shot, but definitely still do-able. Easier with slugs, although still not ideal... But if the goal is more “throw lead downrange to make the other guys stay down so my guys can maneuver” then a shotgun will be fine at 40 meters.

The U.S. Army’s qualification standards for shotgun call for training courses out to 25 meters, with the qualifying courses of fire all being 15 m or less.

I think SR6 really got it right with the new Attack Ratings by range band system. Generally speaking, a shotgun and a rifle should be about on par with each other at “Medium” ranges, with rifles doing a lot better at “Far” and “Extreme” ranges... But with shotguns having a distinct edge at “Close” ranges.

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Shadowjack

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« Reply #29 on: <10-29-19/1922:12> »
Great insight, guys. To clarify my concern though, if you deployed a bipod/tripod at 40 meters and fired from a stationary position in a firefight, wouldn't you just get shot down in seconds? The bonuses provided from a mechanical standpoint are excellent but I'm having a hard time understanding it immersion-wise. I picture bipods and tripods as being used from "safe" positions, not out in the open at ranges where pistols can shoot the user down (in-game).
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