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6th - Shotguns

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Remnar

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« on: <10-06-19/2045:08> »
Sorry if this has been hashed out but I didn't see anything recent and just got the rules.

So... What's the point of shotguns in 6th Ed?

Take my favorite since, what Street Sam Catalogue?, The CMDT.  It seems to be objectively worse than the basic AK in ... everything except price (in a relatively trivial amount at CharGen) with slugs and dubiously better(?) with flechette, depending on if +1 AR is worth giving up 2 DV.

Also, why does the Viper Silvergun get a +1 DV for it's flechette when everything else gets -1 DV for using that ammo, seems backwards.

Then again, nonsense and piles of editing errors are expected from CGL but I'm wondering if I missed something.  Didn't see any shotgun rules in combat or anything for choke and spread or whatnot.

topcat

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« Reply #1 on: <10-06-19/2202:01> »
No reason to ever use a shotgun in SR6 unless you're bad at math or want one for RP purposes.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <10-06-19/2208:40> »
Combat book is coming soon.  It'll probably have some love for shotguns, I'd imagine.

No reason to ever use a shotgun in SR6 unless you're bad at math or want one for RP purposes.

Eh, I'd say "no reason" is an exaggeration:  They hit harder than SMGs, and have better Close ARs than rifles.
« Last Edit: <10-06-19/2210:31> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

ZeroSum

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« Reply #3 on: <10-06-19/2226:06> »
Not a whole lot of need for shotguns in the current implementation, I agree.

If there were any special rules for shot vs slugs, especially shot with variable chole, or anything to distinguish them from rifles they might be worth considering.

They hit harder than SMGs, and have better Close ARs than rifles.
They do hit harder than SMGs (except the P93), but are harder to conceal (except for the short-barrel T-250). SMGs also have superior close Attack Ratings over shotguns, and rifles are barely behind.

The the CMDT, like the OP mentioned. It's DV of 4P is greater than most SMGs and equal to most rifles, but the AK-97 and FN-HAR both do 5P. Additionally, it's AR is 4/11/7 (with Laser Sight included); comparatively, most rifles are in the same range but have far greater range and therefore versatility, as well as Full Auto.

I just don't see any reason to bring a shotgun to a gunfight in the current rules. Let's hope the combat book changes that.

Remnar

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« Reply #4 on: <10-06-19/2242:29> »
Thanks all, I see I didn't miss anything.

Disappointing.

topcat

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« Reply #5 on: <10-07-19/0953:57> »
They do hit harder than SMGs (except the P93), but are harder to conceal (except for the short-barrel T-250). SMGs also have superior close Attack Ratings over shotguns, and rifles are barely behind.

Yep, SMGs have better fire modes, attack ratings, ammo capacities, and concealability.  The FN 93 has comparable DV (and is really the only SMG to buy).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <10-07-19/1021:15> »
Shotguns also have an underbarrel mount, which SMGs lack. That means you can use a bipod/tripod, or combine a laser sight / external smartgun with e.g. a scope. If you want to add both a scope and an external smartgun, you can't do that with the Praetor. You can do that with a Roomsweeper.

That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.
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ZeroSum

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« Reply #7 on: <10-07-19/1143:23> »
That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.
I have to disagree with you there, considering Spray weapons made it in. I think the only ability that uses this method of attack is Noxious Breath, and personally, I think making shotguns more interesting is a higher priority than one very specific mode of attack used by some spirits.

Clearly, the writers disagree with me, though, so it's a bit moot.

Anyway, considering Spray weapons made it in, I don't think alternate fire or something (anything) to make shotguns stand out would have been too much to ask for.

Finstersang

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« Reply #8 on: <10-07-19/1209:45> »
That said, there's indeed a lot of people that would like some extra rules for Flechette shotgun spreads. No idea if the combat book will have anything, we'll see in time. If not, I expect houserules to run galore. But I can understand the choice to leave such firing modes out of CRB.
I have to disagree with you there, considering Spray weapons made it in. I think the only ability that uses this method of attack is Noxious Breath, and personally, I think making shotguns more interesting is a higher priority than one very specific mode of attack used by some spirits.

Clearly, the writers disagree with me, though, so it's a bit moot.

Anyway, considering Spray weapons made it in, I don't think alternate fire or something (anything) to make shotguns stand out would have been too much to ask for.

There are no stats for any spray weapons in the Core rules, though. There are only the rules on how to handle them  ::)

Let´s face it, the fact that
  • Flechette-only "Needleguns" like the Slivergun (which even has the legacy (fl) Tag in the statline!) and the Tiffany Needler all have +1 Damage while Shotgun Flechettes deal -1 Damage
  • PLUS the fact that this bears no consistency with the previous two Editions, where Flechettes increased Damage and the target´s Armor rating
  • PLUS the fact that mechanically, Flechettes are currently just a worse offshoot of APDS rounds, which are not only terribly bad as well, but should also be the polar opposite of Shotgun Flechettes.
  • PLUS the fact that, well, we are talking about Shadowrun 6 here

all point into one direction: It´s an editing Fuckup. Or alternatively, some untestested, last-minute "balancing change", that´s been force-implemented by the secret Games Workshop mole. IMO, this shouldn´t just be an issue for the Combat Supplement; it should be an considered an Errata item  :P

Besides that, I think there is still a lot of creative room for future improvements of Shotguns as a weapon category that would fit nicely in a Combat Supplement. One obvious benefit of RL Shotguns ist that you have a huge variety of crazy stuff you can put in these, from cheap hand-cooked "Blunderbuss" Shots to Specialized Slugs or even Shots of Flaming Magnesium. Combined with the streamlined status effects, the devs theoretically should have a field day with this.

Theoretically  ::)
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ZeroSum

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« Reply #9 on: <10-07-19/1215:49> »
There are no stats for any spray weapons in the Core rules, though. There are only the rules on how to handle them  ::)
Noxious Breath power, page 226:
Quote
This is treated as a Spray Ranged Attack (p. 117) using the critter’s Agility + Magic, with an Attack Rating of Near (Magic x 2), Close (Magic), Medium —, Far —, Extreme —.

Agreed with everything else you said.

Remnar

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« Reply #10 on: <10-07-19/1702:25> »
Ok, since I have a thread open and am pretty sure the answer is "editing fail" I'll just toss a question on top of this thread here.

Trying to put together a combat decker and I see a number of references to agents, including in the index (under software)

But ... No agents anywhere else.  Rules, cost, etc.

Did I miss it?  Or did they forget to include them in the book, and neglected to clean up the matrix section and index? 

Thanks!

ZeroSum

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« Reply #11 on: <10-07-19/1706:25> »
You didn't miss it, but it was dealt with in errata:
p. 271, Software
Remove the paragraph about Agents.

p. 272, Software table
Remove the entry for agents; change hacking program Avail to 4(I)

Of course, I can't remember the link to said errata. Maybe just google Shadowrun August Errata?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: <10-07-19/1719:16> »
The hotfix errata is available here.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Remnar

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« Reply #13 on: <10-07-19/1746:49> »
Thank you!

Shadowhack

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« Reply #14 on: <10-07-19/1834:20> »
Combat book is coming soon.  It'll probably have some love for shotguns, I'd imagine.

No reason to ever use a shotgun in SR6 unless you're bad at math or want one for RP purposes.

Eh, I'd say "no reason" is an exaggeration:  They hit harder than SMGs, and have better Close ARs than rifles.

I haven't heard of any other books coming out soon. Do you have a list of what it coming out other than the list they have on Catalyst?