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Question about racial qualities

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #30 on: <10-04-19/0937:10> »
The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7.  The advantage to playing a human is that your Adjustment Points all go to Edge.
What? How is that an advantage?

Consider (say) priority D into Metatype. You get 4 adjustment points. You are choosing between human and elf. The elf gets higher racial maximums on two stats and a free quality. The human gets nothing.

Both characters are free to put all 4 adjustment points into Edge. Stat-wise, they end up at the same place. The elf can choose to put SAPs into charisma or agility instead, but they don't have to.

Why would anyone pick human, faced with this?

If the elf puts all the SAPs into edge, then yes, you're basically playing a funny looking human who got higher racial maximums (which will likely be irrelevant, if you didn't come out of chargen already hitting them) and free low light vision (which avoided a negligible opportunity cost, and the expenditure of about 500¥).  But you still don't get to benefit from the roleplaying advantages of BEING human... not unless you take Human-Looking and/or invest in the capability to disguise yourself.

Why did you bother picking elf, if you're just putting your SAPs into Edge?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #31 on: <10-04-19/1049:28> »
Why did you bother picking elf, if you're just putting your SAPs into Edge?
I dunno, maybe you just like pointed ears? Maybe you came from one of the Tirs? Maybe you want to be able to take Impaired Attribute 3x times against Charisma but still be able to stat it to 3/4? Maybe you're gonna play a magic type and want low-light vision without cyberware or external gear? Maybe you're gonna take Agility to 6 out of chargen and will buy the 7th point later? Could be lots of reasons.

This isn't the point. The point of my thought experiment is to demonstrate that Metahumans can choose to put all their adjustment points into Edge, just like a human can. So that is not...
...the advantage to playing a human

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #32 on: <10-04-19/1102:33> »
I'm not trying to pick on you.

Just pointing out that yes there's roleplaying reasons why you'd want to play an elf.  My point was that should count for nothing, because there's potentially roleplaying reasons why you'd want to play a human, too.  That's a wash.

That leaves pure mechanics: Yes, metahumans get more advantages. But in order to actually capitalize upon those advantages, they have to pay an opportunity cost in not putting those SAPs in Edge.  The human "advantage" is they lack the opportunity to have a crappy Edge stat.  If the metahuman goes in on edge, then the minor advantages they still have (vision, racial maximums, etc) are just that: MINOR.  I don't see that as actually affecting game balance in a meaningful way.  Vision aug? Virtually moot if your focus is on VR or Astral Space. Completely moot if you get cybereyes. Almost free in terms of how cheap it is to replicate if you DON'T replace your natural eyes.  Higher racial maximum? Who cares. Getting magical or technological attribute augmentation is more accessible than paying 35+ karma anyway.  And even if we're talking down-the-road stuff, I don't find a maximum +1 dice to a dice pool down the line when characters are already very powerful anyway as being game breaking.  YMMV.
« Last Edit: <10-04-19/1106:17> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #33 on: <10-04-19/1229:28> »
have you mathed that out ?
Yes I have.

There are very few use cases where human is a better option than other metatypes.
There are almost no use cases at all where human is a better option than all other metatypes.
There are many use cases where choice of metatype have no impact at all.
There are many use cases where metahuman is a better option than human.
There are a few use cases where each metatype (except human) is a better option than all other metatypes.


Hence why I argue that humans are at disadvantage and that they should probably be compensated in some way

I tried to demonstrate this in the very post you quoted. Read it again.



Unlike previous edition, in most cases it actually doesn't really matter which metatype you pick (hermetic magician can for example be troll or human or ork etc, doesn't really matter - same with decker).

But having said that, in other cases the metatype still have a rather big impact (you will often be at disadvantage if you play shaman or face as another race than elf and you will often be at disadvantage if you play strength based unarmed combatants as another race than troll).
« Last Edit: <10-04-19/1236:43> by Xenon »

ZeroSum

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« Reply #34 on: <10-04-19/1554:52> »
I agree completely with @Xenon on this. Aside from the circumstantial roleplaying effects of being human, there are obvious examples of where picking human (given the choice on the priority table) is putting you at a straight mechanical disadvantage over choosing another metatype.

Examples are Elven Faces, Shamans, and Technancers with a Charisma focus, as well as Agility oriented samurai and adepts.

Dwarven based rigger and decker builds that benefit from higher Willpower, as well as Hermetic Mages (Willpower is used in a lot of Magic tests).

Strength based Ork and Troll builds; these are more of an edge case, especially for Trolls at priority B, though I personally thinketatype A is a trap compared to Attributes A in the currrent rules.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #35 on: <10-04-19/1703:36> »
The advantage to playing a human isn't that the racial maximum on edge is 7.  The advantage to playing a human is that your Adjustment Points all go to Edge.
What? How is that an advantage?

Consider (say) priority D into Metatype. You get 4 adjustment points. You are choosing between human and elf. The elf gets higher racial maximums on two stats and a free quality. The human gets nothing.

Both characters are free to put all 4 adjustment points into Edge. Stat-wise, they end up at the same place. The elf can choose to put SAPs into charisma or agility instead, but they don't have to.

Why would anyone pick human, faced with this?

If the elf puts all the SAPs into edge, then yes, you're basically playing a funny looking human who got higher racial maximums (which will likely be irrelevant, if you didn't come out of chargen already hitting them) and free low light vision (which avoided a negligible opportunity cost, and the expenditure of about 500¥).  But you still don't get to benefit from the roleplaying advantages of BEING human... not unless you take Human-Looking and/or invest in the capability to disguise yourself.

Why did you bother picking elf, if you're just putting your SAPs into Edge?


Natural low light is actually a pretty big advantage for mages. It’s a cheap quality but would be one of the humans 6. Assuming you play to type whether you used the SAP for just edge or not increased maximums is also pretty big.