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What changes would you have wanted in a new edition of old-school Shadowrun?

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0B

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« on: (13:48:14/09-21-19) »
Basically, if FanPro/CGL had carried over the variable Target Modifier system from old-school shadowrun (Including pools, and Attribute/Skills not being combined) rather than switching to the 5/6 success system and Attribute + Skill, what changes would you have wanted?

Up to you if your ideal edition branched from 3E, 2E, or 1E.

Singularity

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« Reply #1 on: (13:54:10/09-21-19) »
With the caveat that 6th was the first edition I've tried, so I don't have knowledge of the previous editions' rules, I do like 6th's changes to the racial section of the priority table. As I understand things, previous editions limited trolls and orks to the higher priorities (except for one edition which used a different character creation system (4th?)). I like that idea enough that I might port it over when I start running a previous edition.

0B

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« Reply #2 on: (14:04:53/09-21-19) »
That's correct- unless you were using the "More Metahumans" rule, you had to put priority A as metatype if you wanted to play something other than a human

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #3 on: (14:28:49/09-21-19) »
...what changes would you have wanted?

Ohh...  That is a tough question to answer.

For me, I have heavy, thick - I mean inch thick - nostalgia glasses for 3rd.  It is one of the reasons I enjoyed 5e as much as I did, it is very reminiscent.
Combine those nostalgia glasses with some 2 decades away from the system...  And I have a difficult time remembering the problems the edition had.

I'm not claiming there weren't any...  I just can't really remember them.



I know that by the time 3rd was ending, it was getting harder to suspend my disbelief over the Matrix.  The fact that Deckers still had to physically connect to the Matrix was a hard pill to swallow.
It didn't matter all that much, because players didn't really play Deckers.  :P

3rd has much more detailed math behind it's system.  With a fixed 5+ is a Hit it is much easier to even estimate your chances on a roll.  At the time, that was a selling point for Shadowrun <= 3rd.  Now, however, the trend appears to be going towards streamlining.


If you will forgive me for not having heavy details to back it up, I would say the changes I would have liked to see are:
  • A revamp of the Matrix system.  Something that advanced the tech to a more believable level, as well as made the system more approachable.  I totally get the "Deckers have to do their thing during out-of-game downtime" is a hassle. I'm not sure that trying to make Decking useful during Combat was the right approach though.  It might have been sufficient to remove the "dungeon crawl" aspect of Decking.
  • Some simplification of the rules.  This one is even more difficult to express.  Too much simplification leaves an unsatisfactory system.  At the same time, a player shouldn't have to use a slide rule (<- sarcasm) to estimate their chances of succeeding at a roll.

I'll keep thinking on this, and might come up with a more meaty post later.

sigfriedmcwild

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« Reply #4 on: (14:29:53/09-21-19) »
That's correct- unless you were using the "More Metahumans" rule, you had to put priority A as metatype if you wanted to play something other than a human

In SR3 metahuman priorities where C (troll, elf) and D (dwarf, ork).

0B

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« Reply #5 on: (15:15:02/09-21-19) »
That's correct- unless you were using the "More Metahumans" rule, you had to put priority A as metatype if you wanted to play something other than a human

In SR3 metahuman priorities where C (troll, elf) and D (dwarf, ork).

Oh, neat! TBH, I haven't played 3rd edition yet, I'm only just getting into the older versions of Shadowrun and I like them a lot

ZeroSum

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« Reply #6 on: (16:38:02/09-21-19) »
This one is pretty simple for me; the Matrix.

In the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd editions of the game, the Matrix was, for all intents and purposes, another game altogether. The old joke that "when it came time for the decker to do their thing, the rest of the group goes for pizza" is a trope for a reason. It was needlessly complicated and excluded, rather than included, the various members of the team.

4th Edition, for better or worse, made substantial changes to this by allowing commlink hacking. I liked the reduced complexity of the approach in that edition, and while 5th Edition went even further I think that's where I would start cherrypicking. I haven't read the 6th Edition rules for the Matrix, but if I could pick 3rd Edition as my starting point, I think the only thing I would change is making a hybridized Matrix using pieces from 4th, 5th, and 6th to include the decker in the game.

That's not to say that 3rd Edition didn't have other problems; this is Shadowrun we're talking about, problems are baked in :) But, that being said, I feel like the options presented in 3rd Edition struck a great balance of enabling each group to figure out what kind of game they wanted to play. From what I'm hearing of 6th, and from my limited exposure to the 5th Edition ruleset, and from my own experience with 4th, I think that 4th Edition is where the devs started sacrificing options for simplicity (and note that I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, it just meant the game was ultimately quite different).

Anyway, that's just one old chummer's take on things...

GuardDuty

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« Reply #7 on: (18:23:17/09-21-19) »
Mostly, I only have small things I would change from 3E (at least that I can think of this moment), and few of them have much to do with the actual system itself and are easily just house-ruled.

I've always felt that either there should be a Magic Pool that affects all magical skills, or if there's a Spell Pool there should also be a Conjuring Pool.  I just think it's fair.  I wouldn't mind having something to assist in Enchanting, either, though I don't feel it's necessary.

While on the subject of magicians, I think Astral Projection should be a metamagic option for aspected mages and adepts with astral perception.  There's never been a fluff explanation I'm aware of that explains why someone who can partially open themselves to the astral couldn't learn to do so all the way.  I also think that being able to use all the magical skills is enough to justify the cost difference between the options. 

No Smartgun II.  At all.  That was such a game breaker.

I would also retcon a lot of stuff from...SOTA 2064 (I think?).  Some of the stuff in there just didn't fit, like adepts healing other people.

Also, just say no to things like PANs and tags.

I did really like the skill family thing 4E did.  On the one hand, I liked how 3E split up Firearms and Armed Combat into a bunch of skills, but I didn't think the defaulting system worked well for those (but I liked it for anything else).  On the other, someone who should be very proficient in, say, all normal firearms (like a merc) has to spend A LOT of skill points in 3E, which I also think is a stretch.  So being able to purchase all the skills for some kind of a discount is something I would like to see.

I like there to be an enhanced cost for playing a metahuman.  I also liked the flat bonus/penalties to attributes depending on your race, because each race is unique.

Also on the topic of race, I would like reasonable rules for playing a vampire (not in the CRB).  I have no clue why 3E introduced a Ghoul option instead, with extensive rules on how you're likely to lose your fraggin' mind.  In all honesty, if you were to take away Mist Form, and maaaaaybe limit Essence to 6 instead of 12, a vampire should be no more expensive to play than a shapeshifter.  Meanwhile, get pixies, nagas, centaurs, and all that stuff the hell out of here.  Have they been around?  Yeah.  Way, way in the background.  They have absolutely nothing to do with the city life of the shadowrun setting, and are very far removed from metahumanity.

Assuming this would be the "new" 4th Edition, it would be the third edition to have a point creation system.  Just put it in the CRB.  You're not reinventing the wheel, and so many people use it because it's way more flexible than the priority system.

Better Matrix rules, obviously.  How?  Frag if I know, chummer.  I firmly do not believe in wireless decking, though, and I think it's easy to explain away that the matrix is too vast and your brain too complicated to connect the two without a hard connection.

As far as fluff, I want them to STOP sympathizing with what should be black-and-white bad guys for the players.  The media shouldn't be trying to gain sympathy for insect spirits.  Insect spirits=bad.  This should remain clear to everyone, everywhere.  Ghouls are largely mindless monsters.  You shouldn't have to stop and question "well, how intelligent are they really?  Am I being humane?"  There are ghouls that retain their humanity, but they're really rare.  FAR from being the rule.  When I'm reading fluff from people on Shadowland (I want Shadowland back), the majority viewpoint should be hose those suckers down with lead and beat feet before they chow down.  Ghouls=don't eat me, bro.

More importantly, as far as fluff, they need to absolutely stop using real world swear words.  I'm not interested in picking up a book and seeing casual f-bombs floating around.  1) It takes me out of the setting.  2) If it doesn't serve a reasonable purpose, I'm minorly offended.  3) It limits my ability to share Shadowrun with others, especially the next generation of my family.
« Last Edit: (19:00:53/09-21-19) by GuardDuty »

Singularity

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« Reply #8 on: (08:40:02/09-22-19) »
...what changes would you have wanted?

Ohh...  That is a tough question to answer.

For me, I have heavy, thick - I mean inch thick - nostalgia glasses for 3rd.  It is one of the reasons I enjoyed 5e as much as I did, it is very reminiscent.
Combine those nostalgia glasses with some 2 decades away from the system...  And I have a difficult time remembering the problems the edition had.

I'm not claiming there weren't any...  I just can't really remember them.



I know that by the time 3rd was ending, it was getting harder to suspend my disbelief over the Matrix.  The fact that Deckers still had to physically connect to the Matrix was a hard pill to swallow.
It didn't matter all that much, because players didn't really play Deckers.  :P

3rd has much more detailed math behind it's system.  With a fixed 5+ is a Hit it is much easier to even estimate your chances on a roll.  At the time, that was a selling point for Shadowrun <= 3rd.  Now, however, the trend appears to be going towards streamlining.


If you will forgive me for not having heavy details to back it up, I would say the changes I would have liked to see are:
  • A revamp of the Matrix system.  Something that advanced the tech to a more believable level, as well as made the system more approachable.  I totally get the "Deckers have to do their thing during out-of-game downtime" is a hassle. I'm not sure that trying to make Decking useful during Combat was the right approach though.  It might have been sufficient to remove the "dungeon crawl" aspect of Decking.
  • Some simplification of the rules.  This one is even more difficult to express.  Too much simplification leaves an unsatisfactory system.  At the same time, a player shouldn't have to use a slide rule (<- sarcasm) to estimate their chances of succeeding at a roll.

I'll keep thinking on this, and might come up with a more meaty post later.

Currently my plan is to create an NPC decker for the team, and pre-run any matrix bits before the run starts so that the group doesn't have to wait. With as bad as I have heard it is, I think that would be one area to revamp.

wraith

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« Reply #9 on: (14:21:46/09-22-19) »
In all honesty, pretty much all I'd do if I started from 3e is remove the stat penalties from metahumans and replace then with similar value social Flaws to represent systemic racism and keep the point values roughly similar.

Beyond that, it's a pretty solid game. The Matrix is messy, but the rules from Mr. J's Little Black Book can be used if you don't want to deep dive into it.

Serin_Marst

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« Reply #10 on: (21:55:51/09-22-19) »
The rules around full-auto/armor/soak could use a look.  The edge cases that people dislike in 6e's AR/DR system very much exist in different forms in 3e.

Between full-auto and APDS worn armor and soak in general become irrelevant very quickly.  Conversly, against weak attacks like a holdout pistol, a basic BPV and full riot gear with a balistic shield are equally effective.

Csjarrat

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« Reply #11 on: (16:26:51/09-24-19) »
I started playing under 3rd as the first RPG I'd ever played, it was very tough, rules heavy, complex and a bit of a slog. Getting a rigger built took me a couple of days!!
4e for me was the best I've played. Hacking worked, matrix was believable and worked better.
5e was ok, but had a lot of issues with quality. In fact it was godawful, a lot of the time. If I could pick a branch somewhere, an easier 3rd would be ace. Otherwise updated 4e would be brill
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wraith

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« Reply #12 on: (01:28:12/09-25-19) »
The rules around full-auto/armor/soak could use a look.  The edge cases that people dislike in 6e's AR/DR system very much exist in different forms in 3e.

Between full-auto and APDS worn armor and soak in general become irrelevant very quickly.  Conversly, against weak attacks like a holdout pistol, a basic BPV and full riot gear with a balistic shield are equally effective.

APDS in 3e is also availability 14/14 days and 7 nuyen a round base... with a street index of 4.

Most people won't be able to get it, and those who can aren't going to crank away with it.  It gets rather steep when a full auto burst will eat up 280 nuyen a Combat Phase.
« Last Edit: (01:31:09/09-25-19) by wraith »

Serin_Marst

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« Reply #13 on: (11:22:02/09-25-19) »
The rules around full-auto/armor/soak could use a look.  The edge cases that people dislike in 6e's AR/DR system very much exist in different forms in 3e.

Between full-auto and APDS worn armor and soak in general become irrelevant very quickly.  Conversly, against weak attacks like a holdout pistol, a basic BPV and full riot gear with a balistic shield are equally effective.

APDS in 3e is also availability 14/14 days and 7 nuyen a round base... with a street index of 4.

Most people won't be able to get it, and those who can aren't going to crank away with it.  It gets rather steep when a full auto burst will eat up 280 nuyen a Combat Phase.
Oh, absolutely.  APDS being made commonplace in 5e was a huge change to the metagame, but the point still stands.

A 6 round FA shot(a very achievable level of compensation) from a SMG puts soak TN in the 6+ range.  An AR does it for stacked armor.  APDS does it for heavy hardened military fba.
« Last Edit: (13:08:28/09-25-19) by Serin_Marst »