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Gear with stats that dont works/make sense

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Antique

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« on: (11:38:20/09-18-19) »
First on the list:
- panther assault canon: does less damage than a HMG. In fact some assault rifle do the same damage, due to ss mode vs BF with recoil systems...
- grenades: same damage as a missile, that contains 10-30 more explosive.
- anti tank missile: worse vs vehicles than regular missile.

So how to fix the stats and what other gears need stats to be reworked?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: (12:01:52/09-18-19) »
Grenades don't do net hits but yeah I definitely want to nerf them. Halving them since they're not really dodgeable perhaps.

AR is how we do extra piercing but it feels unsatisfying with anti tank. I forget the costs but maybe buff them against vehicles with significant extra AR?

I always considered Panther to be less than its reputation. I agree it needs extra damage. Or maybe a special bonus rule.
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BeCareful

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« Reply #2 on: (21:01:38/09-18-19) »
I do like that idea someone proposed wherein explosives don't do instakill damage, but still a lot, and also have status effects as well. So, you may have survived the explosion, but you were still in one, so you're "Rattled" or something, which gives you a dice pool penalty, or makes it harder to generate Edge, or something?
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Typhus

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« Reply #3 on: (22:55:41/09-18-19) »
That may have been me.  It's something I was doing in a homebrew draft before 6E came out.  Conditions and extra weapon effects solve a lot of condundrums about how much damage X does.  For example if you are hit with a full auto burst, it should shred some armor on top of any injury, moreso if you used explosive or flechette ammo.  Yeah, you lived once.  Won't happen again, and if it does, you'll feel it worse than before.  Armor should save you once or twice, but after that it's time to step out of the hallway.

As a GM, I don't want to autokill my players, but I do want them running for it with half their arse on fire and enjoying the need to do a crazy parkour run to get to the the grungy swimming pool to put it out.  I've come to find that players really remember and enjoy the close call situations and the hare-brained things they had to do to survive.  16 physical damage from a grenade is not interesting or solid design for what I need in a game to make those moments.  It's just wound boxes, which make characters no more interesting than a sack of hit points.  "Surprise, you're suddenly dead!  So sad, next time ... um... well, just roll a troll I guess?  You might live?" 

It's like being hit with a fireball at first level in D&D.  It' s a way for the GM to kill you just because they can.  Not unlike the hideous critical glitch effects that wipe your character concept out for the sin of one bad roll.  Just bad design that should have died in the 90s where it spawned.  Uninspired, outdated, and not fun. 

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #4 on: (08:29:09/09-19-19) »
16P is fine for a HE grenade. It's just that Molotov cocktails should've been statted in the core rulebook (instead of literally the last splatbook of the edition) so that gangers have something more reasonable to throw at you than military hardware.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: (09:26:44/09-19-19) »
I do like that idea someone proposed wherein explosives don't do instakill damage, but still a lot, and also have status effects as well. So, you may have survived the explosion, but you were still in one, so you're "Rattled" or something, which gives you a dice pool penalty, or makes it harder to generate Edge, or something?
Half damage against people, full against barriers, when hit face a Threshold DV composure test to not be dazed for hits short in turns, which stacks between explosives?
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Typhus

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« Reply #6 on: (11:48:15/09-19-19) »
Quote
Half damage against people, full against barriers, when hit face a Threshold DV composure test to not be dazed for hits short in turns, which stacks between explosives?

I like that.  I'd throw in some armor shredding on that too, though that's much less relevant in 6.  Maybe -1 DR per explosive hit since the DR is already low.  It would only apply to external layers of armor, obvs.  Can't "shred" bone lacing as such.  Could apply to orthoskin and dermal whatever, if that was your top layer, I suppose, but ouch.

CigarSmoker

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« Reply #7 on: (15:07:06/09-19-19) »
- panther assault canon: does less damage than a HMG. In fact some assault rifle do the same damage, due to ss mode vs BF with recoil systems

I agree RAW its just a very bad weapon. To Change it, i would give it SS (RAW it has SA) and increase DV to 9.  I guess the Panther XXL DV was made without considering that Assault Cannon Ammunition cant be modified (page 262). With 9 DV it would be better at shooting trough barriers than assault rifles ...

Noble Drake

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« Reply #8 on: (22:28:23/09-19-19) »
In regards to the Panther cannon v. rifle or machine-gun topic:

DV is one thing, but don't forget about Attack Rating. If using narrow bursts to get the DV of a rifle or machine-gun up to/above that of the cannon, the attack rating drops by enough that Edge could be gained by the cannon while not being gained by the rifle/machine-gun.

That matters. It might not put the balance scales back to where they were in a prior edition, but with the overall compression of damage and systematic reliance on Edge as an important trait, it does enough to not leave this in the "don't work/make sense" category.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: (03:56:38/09-20-19) »
I just want to pop some AV rounds into an Assault Cannon and maybe some Incindiary rounds as well.

What we should remember is that playerwise maybe only Trolls really get a really high DR, tough vehicles easily get a really big DR. The Steel Lynx has a DR of 28... Others include values such as 14.
« Last Edit: (03:58:20/09-20-19) by Michael Chandra »
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CigarSmoker

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« Reply #10 on: (04:29:02/09-20-19) »
DV is one thing, but don't forget about Attack Rating. If using narrow bursts to get the DV of a rifle or machine-gun up to/above that of the cannon, the attack rating drops by enough that Edge could be gained by the cannon while not being gained by the rifle/machine-gun.

AK-97 (2100Y) with Shock-Pad(50Y -1 on Narrow Burst) and Gas-Vent(500Y) (-3 on Narrow Burst) gets -1 Attack Rating from Narrow Burst so it has with Narrow Burst 3/10/8/6/0

40 shots Explosive AK-97 Ammo cost 80Y. DV is now 5+2+1 = 8 DV
2730 Nuyen spent on AK-97.

Panther XXL (10.000Y) with Shock-Pad(50Y; -SA on SemiAuto) gets -0 Attack Rating so it has 1/9/12/8/6
DV is always 7+1= 8 DV
20 shots Assault Cannon Ammo cost 100Y
10150 Nuyen spent on Panther XXL.

RPG-HMG (8000Y)with Shock-Pad(50Y)and Gas-Vent(500Y) AR 0/9/11/7/6
40 shots explosive Machine Gun Ammo cost 120 Nuyen
DV is 6+2+1= 9 DV
8670 Nuyen spent on RPG-HMG.

if AR is an issue load APDS in the RPG-HMG. To get 8 7DV and 2/11/13/9/8 -> Superior cost wise, legal wise, versatility vise, AT rating  and DV.

Edited because i forgot the -1 DV for the APDS Ammunition ...  in the end AR rating doesnt matter much in my opinion. So i never looked twice at APDS ^^



« Last Edit: (08:29:28/09-20-19) by CigarSmoker »

penllawen

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« Reply #11 on: (04:47:30/09-20-19) »
In regards to the Panther cannon v. rifle or machine-gun topic:

DV is one thing, but don't forget about Attack Rating. If using narrow bursts to get the DV of a rifle or machine-gun up to/above that of the cannon, the attack rating drops by enough that Edge could be gained by the cannon while not being gained by the rifle/machine-gun.

That matters.
Rifle and assault cannon ARs are within a point of each other. Assuming the use of gas-vent and shock pads on the rifle the burst fire penalty becomes -1, so they're still very close. Thus the "cannon gets Edge, rifle does not" scenario will only happen when the defence rating is 15 or 16 - no higher, no lower.

I've had a quick look through the book and I think that either never happens or happens only rarely. DRs for characters don't go that high and vehicles are either quite a bit lower or quite a bit higher.

Finstersang

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« Reply #12 on: (06:45:01/09-20-19) »
Itīs also a big fail (and just good olī lazy-ass Copypasta from 5th Edition) that Assault Cannon rounds cannot be bought as Explosive Ammo etc. Thatīs part of the reasons why thy donīt match up against Sniper Rifles. All they have is more expensive regular Ammo.
« Last Edit: (06:51:15/09-20-19) by Finstersang »

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #13 on: (07:27:17/09-20-19) »
if AR is an issue load APDS
Never do this for any reason. A slightly better chance of getting edge in some cases is not worth losing raw damage.
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CigarSmoker

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« Reply #14 on: (08:38:59/09-20-19) »
to change APDS Ammunition, I would give it regular DV, keep +2 AR, reduce the halfed Structure rating by 2 against targets behind Structures

So at the Moment (RAW p.111) you get half the Structure rating as damage Reduction when totally behind a barrier.

With my changed APDS this damage Reduction would be lowered. This would make APDS superior to other Ammunition in this rare case.