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Shadowrun 6e Twilight Sins Ending

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markelphoenix

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« Reply #135 on: (17:15:31/09-21-19) »
Coming form someone who dipped his toe in starting in 2nd, right before 3rd came out, I actually like what they're trying to do with 6th. Are there flaws? Oh yeah! Can errata and splat books smooth out these flaws? I personally believe so!

Another thing, was in prior edition, I seldom used the Priority System. Usually did Karma Buy. So will be interesting to see how they handle Physical Adepts, Mages, Technomancers, and the like, with Karma Gen and Lifestyle Systems (which, based on No Future, has been strongly hinted we will have a Lifestyle char gen in upcoming book).

On a note about edge, I agree the +2 max per phase is....unreasonable, imo. Rather than House Rule or Errata it, I am actually hoping they take opportunity to add qualities around Edge Gain Maximums. Imagine a quality like thus:
Code: [Select]
No Need For Luck When You Got Skill:
Max Edge that can be held at any one time Reduced by 1 (regardless of Edge stat)
Max Edge gained per phase reduced by 1
All Attributes Gain +2
All Skills Gain +2, if a skill ins untrained instead it becomes trained
Can only be taken after attribute points and skill points have been allocated

Then on the other end of the spectrum:
Code: [Select]
Lady Luck Don't Fail Me Now:
Max Edge that can be held at any one time increase by 2
Max Edge generate per phase increase by 2
Anytime your available edge equals 0, 2s and 3s count toward glitches

BeCareful

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« Reply #136 on: (21:58:11/09-21-19) »
Yeah, there's still a lot of great setting stuff to read. I'd like to read 30 Nights, if only because, "Hey, finally something's set in Toronto!" Or I could buy it as a gift for my GM and say, "Please re-jigger this for whichever edition it is that we're playing now."
Similarly, now I'm interested in seeing what sort of stuff they did for their videos of previous editions.
"Welcome to Shadowrun, where the biggest obstacle is you!"

Singularity

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« Reply #137 on: (08:09:27/09-22-19) »
I think you are misunderstanding my comment regarding combat, and for the record I do understand real combat quite well, thank you.

By no means I mean to insult you, or aim that comment specifically against you as a person. I have red the comment again and deleted that particular section, as it it was a rant due to accumulated frustration with overall negative views of 6e. I apologise.  :(

Fair enough. I may not have been as clear as I should have been originally. If so, I apologize.

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #138 on: (08:21:13/09-22-19) »
Fair enough. I may not have been as clear as I should have been originally. If so, I apologize.

You have been clear, no apology needed. I simply ventilated towards the video using your quote which ,in hindsight, has put you into the line of fire of my negative emotions aimed at authors of the video. I should have given you cover IV and bonus 2 edge. I hope it's fine now  :-[

Singularity

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« Reply #139 on: (08:31:05/09-22-19) »
It's all cool here!  ;D

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #140 on: (10:08:47/09-22-19) »
I'm not sure what's the best thread to put this in, as it's inherently a BattleTech topic... but this appears to be the most topical thread at the moment for "They should have done playtesting differently" views.


CGL may (MAY!) have taken note of flaws in 6we's closed playtest and wanted to try out a beta playtest: the new BattleTech RPG Mechwarrior Destiny just dropped for closed beta.  Of course there may be no correlation between the two as they're different brands, but maybe there is.  CGL is at least TRYING a closed beta for a RPG this time around.  Of course I can't help but notice that in these early hours/days, it appears to already have problems with reconciling what a "closed" beta is supposed to be, since it went out to KS backers of appropriate tiers without NDAs... but baby steps.  Gotta learn to crawl before trying to run.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

adzling

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« Reply #141 on: (11:59:52/09-22-19) »
CGL may (MAY!) have taken note of flaws in 6we's closed playtest and wanted to try out a beta playtest: the new BattleTech RPG Mechwarrior Destiny just dropped for closed beta.  Of course there may be no correlation between the two as they're different brands, but maybe there is.  CGL is at least TRYING a closed beta for a RPG this time around.  Of course I can't help but notice that in these early hours/days, it appears to already have problems with reconciling what a "closed" beta is supposed to be, since it went out to KS backers of appropriate tiers without NDAs... but baby steps.  Gotta learn to crawl before trying to run.

Battletech has always been the favored child of Catalyst due to Randal Bill's love for the game whereas Shadowrun has always been the red-headed step-child.
That's why battletech got a $2.3million kickstarter lovingly doted over for what will end up being 2+ years while Shadowrun 6e was rushed out in 6-9 months on the cheap.
It's also why Battletech had a complete errata team for years and it took me (and others) complaining FOR years before they started one up for Sahdowrun.

There is no comparison, so please don't make it.

wraith

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« Reply #142 on: (01:48:34/09-23-19) »
I think you are misunderstanding my comment regarding combat, and for the record I do understand real combat quite well, thank you.

By no means I mean to insult you, or aim that comment specifically against you as a person. I have red the comment again and deleted that particular section, as it it was a rant due to accumulated frustration with overall negative views of 6e. I apologise.  :(

And why should Roll4It look for positives just to satisfy you?

For that matter, why should they try balancing the scale when presenting their audience with the reasons for why their show is ending? 

The problem is when you are judging (and unfairly I might add) the people of the video and not just their opinion - all based on a misconception of what the video is presented as - you are crossing the line.

My perspective is that if someone played 400 games of previous editions and than played maybe 10 games of a new edition, which (from my reading around this forum) is vastly different, acknowledge the fact before yourself and your audience that you might be biased and might not grasped the designers intention. From what I saw and heard, that was not the case.

Second, having a strong voice and critique is absolutely fine. But I felt that the GM also crossed the line as he was creating overall negative atmosphere and that (again from my perspective) brought members of the group along, which prevented constructive critique. The comment section below can demonstrate how the overall tone of the video easily spread the same bias towards its viewers, which is not what I would expect from experienced GM. If I am not mistaken, that video has over 12000 views. So 1200 people got the message that 6E is terrible and possibly won't even try for themselves.

Therefore I voiced my opinion against such attitude, but I do agree that my previous reaction was over the top and was a result of accumulated frustration. I apologise for the excessive language, I did edit my initial post.
If I insulted anyone, I apologise.  :-X

You are really, really making a terrible argument here.

If a new edition of a game requires that one have never played a prior edition for it to be enjoyable, then it is a bad game.

There is no such thing as a completely fresh perspective on the sixth edition of a 30 year old property that does nearly nothing to market itself to new gamers.
« Last Edit: (02:10:32/09-23-19) by wraith »

dezmont

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« Reply #143 on: (02:25:49/09-23-19) »
Also the argument is really bad because it is essentially saying that basically an argument against the very concept of critical thinking?

It is an objectively terrible standard to say one needs to thoroughly exhaust all opportunities for something to be good before it can be judged. That isn't a standard held in ANY rational context.

You don't need to read and playtest the entirety of Cthulhu-tech to understand it is a miserable, terrible, awfully designed game set in a misserable, terrible, unfun to explore world with no real redeeming qualities besides its abstract high concept it doesn't even lean into.

A vital aspect of being... a functioning human being is to be able to extrapolate greater concepts from a dataset smaller than 'an all encompassing knowledge of something.' If you play 10 sessions of SR, and not a single one is fun, you shouldn't continue going 'in case' its going to get better, just as you shouldn't watch a TV series through entirely 'in case' it gets better after the first 10 episodes were truly awful.

It doesn't matter if you watched the series that it was a sequel to, in most situations compulsively doing things you don't like out of the concern of missing out on something good is a literal an anxiety disorder (Literal as in 'you would actually be diagnosed'), not a rational way to critique things.

This is a fallacious argument, and probably one of the more damaging ones you can make, because saying a critique should not involve critical analysis or thought is not a misstep in logic so much as an attempt to invalidate the concept of criticism, discernment, and critical thought. It literally can be sumarized by this little chestnut of a video. You are saying, quite literally, that one cannot ask questions, think through ramifications of choices, or analyze a pretty compelling dataset to come to a negative conclusion against a media product without consuming so much and taking so long that you are fully consuming 100% of all media presented to you.

The ENTIRE POINT of a review, of a critical analysis, IS to 'bias people' based on a snapshot of the important parts of that product. That is, quite literally, the job of a critic. The fact that this is going to drive fans away is not the fault of the critic except in a very basic, examined sense, especially when the critic is being consistent with a dominant trend of criticism and thus is merely just another voice saying the same thing. A good critic will present an argument for a particular take or analysis of a bit of media (sometimes as a review, sometimes to explore themes, motifs, style, technique, or its place in the culture, 'critics' don't just do reviews), and will provide enough supporting evidence to justify their opinion so that people can make up their own minds.

That is exactly what Roll4It did. You can point out why the evidence was faulty, why their examples shouldn't be expected to be accurate to most tables, or why they may be biased or having trouble, but saying 'You should not think critically about a product to draw conclusions about that product and share those conclusions' is...

Well it would be a very happy day for some Horrizon social media memetic engineer if they got that concept to go mainstream, as it is literally arguing for the lack of discernment and critical thought in what products to consume and purchase as a virtue, which means no product would ever need to make any attempt at quality because, under that worldview, quality is, essentially, irrelevant, as for someone to conclude something is low quality they already have had to pay for it, consume it, and probably buy the expansions and splats as well.


GuardDuty

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« Reply #144 on: (02:27:23/09-23-19) »
There is no such thing as a completely fresh perspective on the sixth edition of a 30 year old property that does nearly nothing to market itself to new gamers.

To be accurate, there have been 6 posts by different people on Reddit in just the last 5 days saying they are completely new to Shadowrun and asking about 6E.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #145 on: (02:36:50/09-23-19) »
Coming form someone who dipped his toe in starting in 2nd, right before 3rd came out, I actually like what they're trying to do with 6th. Are there flaws? Oh yeah! Can errata and splat books smooth out these flaws? I personally believe so!

Another thing, was in prior edition, I seldom used the Priority System. Usually did Karma Buy. So will be interesting to see how they handle Physical Adepts, Mages, Technomancers, and the like, with Karma Gen and Lifestyle Systems (which, based on No Future, has been strongly hinted we will have a Lifestyle char gen in upcoming book).
I really like Priority because I suffer intensively from choice paralysis, so a Priority character takes me probably less than 20% of the time a BP character in 4th took me. Karmagen would be worse, since I'd be finicky about EVERY SINGLE POINT, though the 6w skills will be easier to manage due to their number and karma cost. Also, I really like Life Modules, but only with a decent tool to pick them. When I made samples with them, I had to write some excel tools to support me for properly optimal characters.

As an asides, I should note that in 4th and 5th combined I have played only approximately 20 games and GMed a mere hundred games (SRM+Open Events and home campaign combined, 2:3 split), so far I'm at GMing 2 6w events (and another being GMed by my brother when I was unavailable), and right now I'm loving 6w. I do acknowledge quite a few flaws (fingers crossed for errata), and that it's not everyone's thing, but I really love it despite being a crunchy monster that loves SR5 as well. And one of the things I really like about it, is that this time I won't have to do all the math for my players, they'll actually be able to follow it themselves. A literal newbie to RPGing managed to pick up the new Edge system in his first fight, and ended up a lovely coldblooded Shadowrunner during that adventure, and I love seeing that. Now I have my fingers crossed I convince my wife to not just write but also play with me soon.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

PatrolDeer

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« Reply #146 on: (09:21:56/09-23-19) »

Also the argument is really bad because it is essentially saying that basically an argument against the very concept of critical thinking?

The ENTIRE POINT of a review, of a critical analysis, IS to 'bias people' based on a snapshot of the important parts of that product. That is, quite literally, the job of a critic.


Critical thinking, Oxford dictionary:
"the process of analysing information in an objective way, in order to make a judgement about it"
(‘Critical thinking—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary’, n.d.)

Bias, Oxford dictionary:
"a strong feeling in favour of or against one group of people, or one side in an argument, often not based on fair judgement"
(‘Bias—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary’, n.d.)

Universal Intellectual Standards:
Clarity - If a statement is unclear we cannot assess whether it is accurate or relevant.
Accuracy - Is it really true? A statement can be clear but not accurate.
Precision - “Jack is overweight”. Sure, one kilo or 20 kilo? but this is not precise enough?
Relevance - Is this relevant to the question? To the goal and the perspective of the paper?
Depth - Statements or solutions can be superficial for a complex issue.
Breadth - All relevant points-of-view need to be considered to address an issue effectively.
Logic - The way we bring together different thoughts needs to make sense.
Fairness - Are we open-minded, impartial and free of distorting biases and misconceptions?
(Elder & Paul, n.d.)

Toulmin method:
A claim is the assertion that authors would like to prove to their audience. It is, in other words, the main argument.
The grounds of an argument are the evidence and facts that help support the claim.
The warrant, which is either implied or stated explicitly, is the assumption that links the grounds to the claim.
Backing refers to any additional support of the warrant. In many cases, the warrant is implied, and therefore the backing provides support for the warrant by giving a specific example that justifies the warrant.
Qualifier shows that a claim may not be true in all circumstances. Words like “presumably,” “some,” and “many” help your audience understand that you know there are instances where your claim may not be correct.
The rebuttal is an acknowledgement of another valid view of the situation.
(Purdue, n.d.)

Re-read my previous post and realise that I raised my concern about how the critique was done, not about the critique itself. Also, you might find out that I did edit my post and reflected, that my statements were driven by accumulated frustration from overall negativity with which the new system is greeted.

Italics, underline and bold added by me to stress specific points of the text.


References:
Bias—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary. (n.d.). Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/bias_1?q=bias
Critical thinking—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary. (n.d.). Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/critical-thinking?q=critical+thinking
Elder, L., & Paul, R. (n.d.). Universal Intellectual Standards. Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/universal-intellectual-standards/527
Purdue. (n.d.). Toulmin Argument // Purdue Writing Lab. Retrieved 23 September 2019, from Purdue Writing Lab website: https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/historical_perspectives_on_argumentation/toulmin_argument.html
What is Critical Analysis, University of Bradford. (n.d.). Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.bradford.ac.uk/academic-skills/media/academicskillsadvice/documents/workshops/criticalanalysis/What-is-Critical-Analysis-Booklet---Student.pdf
« Last Edit: (09:24:10/09-23-19) by PatrolDeer »

Banshee

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« Reply #147 on: (10:08:20/09-23-19) »

Also the argument is really bad because it is essentially saying that basically an argument against the very concept of critical thinking?

The ENTIRE POINT of a review, of a critical analysis, IS to 'bias people' based on a snapshot of the important parts of that product. That is, quite literally, the job of a critic.


Critical thinking, Oxford dictionary:
"the process of analysing information in an objective way, in order to make a judgement about it"
(‘Critical thinking—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary’, n.d.)

Bias, Oxford dictionary:
"a strong feeling in favour of or against one group of people, or one side in an argument, often not based on fair judgement"
(‘Bias—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary’, n.d.)

Universal Intellectual Standards:
Clarity - If a statement is unclear we cannot assess whether it is accurate or relevant.
Accuracy - Is it really true? A statement can be clear but not accurate.
Precision - “Jack is overweight”. Sure, one kilo or 20 kilo? but this is not precise enough?
Relevance - Is this relevant to the question? To the goal and the perspective of the paper?
Depth - Statements or solutions can be superficial for a complex issue.
Breadth - All relevant points-of-view need to be considered to address an issue effectively.
Logic - The way we bring together different thoughts needs to make sense.
Fairness - Are we open-minded, impartial and free of distorting biases and misconceptions?
(Elder & Paul, n.d.)

Toulmin method:
A claim is the assertion that authors would like to prove to their audience. It is, in other words, the main argument.
The grounds of an argument are the evidence and facts that help support the claim.
The warrant, which is either implied or stated explicitly, is the assumption that links the grounds to the claim.
Backing refers to any additional support of the warrant. In many cases, the warrant is implied, and therefore the backing provides support for the warrant by giving a specific example that justifies the warrant.
Qualifier shows that a claim may not be true in all circumstances. Words like “presumably,” “some,” and “many” help your audience understand that you know there are instances where your claim may not be correct.
The rebuttal is an acknowledgement of another valid view of the situation.
(Purdue, n.d.)

Re-read my previous post and realise that I raised my concern about how the critique was done, not about the critique itself. Also, you might find out that I did edit my post and reflected, that my statements were driven by accumulated frustration from overall negativity with which the new system is greeted.

Italics, underline and bold added by me to stress specific points of the text.


References:
Bias—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary. (n.d.). Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/bias_1?q=bias
Critical thinking—Definition; Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary. (n.d.). Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/critical-thinking?q=critical+thinking
Elder, L., & Paul, R. (n.d.). Universal Intellectual Standards. Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/universal-intellectual-standards/527
Purdue. (n.d.). Toulmin Argument // Purdue Writing Lab. Retrieved 23 September 2019, from Purdue Writing Lab website: https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/historical_perspectives_on_argumentation/toulmin_argument.html
What is Critical Analysis, University of Bradford. (n.d.). Retrieved 23 September 2019, from https://www.bradford.ac.uk/academic-skills/media/academicskillsadvice/documents/workshops/criticalanalysis/What-is-Critical-Analysis-Booklet---Student.pdf

This right here, I agree 100%. I have been very critical if this video in a few different places. Not because I am a huge supporter of 6WE (which I am obviously) and not because of what they said necessarily... but because of HOW they chose to say it.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
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FastJack

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« Reply #148 on: (10:16:08/09-23-19) »
Damn, I want to turn the Karma system back on the boards to give PD +500.

wraith

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« Reply #149 on: (10:21:46/09-23-19) »
There is no such thing as a completely fresh perspective on the sixth edition of a 30 year old property that does nearly nothing to market itself to new gamers.

To be accurate, there have been 6 posts by different people on Reddit in just the last 5 days saying they are completely new to Shadowrun and asking about 6E.

Six posts.  On a community with 30,849 subscribers, much less readers.  Pardon me for a slight potential exaggeration.

I've been playing and GMing this game for over 20 years at this point, and I can say in all due honesty in the last 10 I've seen SR suggested to a new player by a game store once... and that was Anarchy, right at release.

Actually working with Actual Play groups is the biggest promotion of SR CGL's done in a decade.  The Year of Shadowrun stuff around the 5e release was the closest thing to real promotion, and most of that was the SRR kickstarter throwing them a bone.

Edit to add: Hell, the website still calls out 20A as the current core book.

https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/products/e-books/

'The Core Rulebooks expand on the various aspects found in the 20th Anniversary Edition Rulebook, providing a plethora of options: more guns, vehicles, and drones; more cyberware, bioware and new nanotechnology; more magic and the metaplanes; new hacking tricks and sprites; more character options…a host of optional rules for any character type.'
« Last Edit: (10:28:10/09-23-19) by wraith »