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An update on SR6e DriveThruRPG ratings

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dezmont

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« Reply #90 on: (03:11:10/09-21-19) »
Another problem is the D I S C O U R S E is dominated by two different schools of thought. Because despite 6e having a big shakeup in the form of the edge change (Which, again, I think has fundemental flaws from a game design perspective in that it adds an entire new mandatory step in conflict resolution for EVERY roll which is bigger and more in depth and more integral than limits on most rolls, and limits were removed for being artificial complexity added to every roll) a lot of SR6 is... pretty much the same.

Not just in a copy paste sorta way. Like there are obvious changes. Matrix got reworked, magic got major reworks, ect. In the sense that the direction of the line hasn't budged an inch in terms of things like role balance (Mages are still overpreforming) or editing quality or rules cohesion.

If those things were not a major dealbreaker, then SR6 probably feels fine (Unless NuEdge really bugs you or you were a fan of samurai). You don't care that deckers still can't hybridize, that there are two dead roles from a power level perspective that under-preform so hard they may as well not exist (Rigger and Samurai, rather than Rigger and Techno in 5e), or that mages are OP OP. There is now a new economy system to experiment with, the metatype tables got objectively better even if they aren't perfectly balanced because they are less restrictive, and skills make more sense now. Damage is now totally flat so there is 0% difference in the soak capabilities of PCs, which if you didn't apreciate what old soak did and just wanted to have gunshots sting a bit to create an air of threat without ever actually really being in danger because the curve of damage is so flat (You either get stomped or are coming out hurt but ok, depending on how much incoming Damage Per Round the GM tossed in), and because it is still easy to become immune to damage via defense, which essentially means a major 'trap' of chargen of insufficient soak went away. And the editing and rules coherence is bad but it always was, so whatever. From that perspective, the game in the ways you care about is better. Its easier to just toss SR onto the table and while you may need to make the same number of rules up on the fly you were doing that anyway.

But if you really did care about poor role balance, bad rules editing, and the game continuing in this weird direction where what shadowrunners do conceptually isn't nailed down well or in line with the fiction, SR6 is a major regression. There are some attempts to fix concerns, like buff magic getting nerfed in some ways, or the decker buy in being about 1/4th your resources, rather than 1/2 minimum, but no problem you cared about was actually fixed, and in many cases things got worse.

Like if you were not a fan of mages who increased attributed themselves and then ran around as a mini-samurai with a mega-samurai spirit helping them? If you had players literally quit SR forever (like I have) because they were so supremely frustrated with how unfair mages felt and how pressured they felt to be one? Guess what, they made that strategy comparatively stronger! A bane that literally tore your SR group apart, like it did mine, got worse! It just feels gross to have every single thing you have been complaining held back the game so much untouched, while things that didn't matter or felt good (Like mundane samurai being really good at staying alive to help create high point moments for them alongside the PC mage just summoning a force 8 to godzilla an entire complex because they can casually skate about fighting while ignoring bullets on their skimmers) got changed in ways that don't make any sense (From a balance perspective the idea of nerfing samurai is... actually amazingly incoherent. I get the soak change was an attempt to fix a GMing issue that only existed among GMs who weren't playing SR like a heist game and instead like a dungeon grinder, but the change was unarguably and objectively a nerf).

From THAT perspective? CGL comes across as amazingly tone-deaf to the actual issues they care about in the game, and combined with the fact these issues were really clearly a huge issue years before SR6 was even in development. So if you are in that boat, it honestly does feel like management doesn't care, or doesn't know what they are doing. People in the first boat see a mob crying for firings for no reason, but people in the second boat see that the captain at the helm hasn't... changed anything in a meaningful way. They didn't alter the course, they swapped the music in the record player, and because these issues have felt super critical in SR for a long time that is... really hard to forgive with a 'lets give them a chance to fix it.'

If SR felt broken to you by the end of the 5e line where magicrun hit a critical mass? 6e WAS the chance to fix it. So from that perspective calls for clemency, understanding, and patience are essentially calls to give up on holding a commercial product to any standard.

And, I will reiterate, if you assume this is the default position of the reddit, and that the opposite is the default position of the forums, people who feel this way outnumber people who are fine or happy with 6e around 10:1 on a slow reddit month vs a good month for the forums (SR not only has more uniques by a wide margin, but more individual page views, again about 10 times the amount as the entire shadowruntabletop site, which is rough because one off views are way less common on reddit than a site like shadowrun tabletop, so the ratio is likely even poorer. These metrics are unverified but I would be surprised if they were off by a factor of 10). This is important not to say 'you are wrong for liking 6e' but to emphasize that 6e... really does have a lot to prove.

So even if you think all the criticism of 6e is invalid, it... kinda doesn't matter because a consensus among the greater community has formed and calling that consensus invalid won't change it, you would actually need to defend why you think 6e is *good* rather than why more chances should be given. Too many people have made up their minds here, even assuming reddit had a 50/50 split and the website was off by 100% that is still 2:1 on people who don't like it, and the numbers are way worse. The data doesn't tell the whole story but there seems to be a narrative that a story isn't there which is really troubling. There is a more fundamental problem here than a need for errata, again, to go back to that post you linked: Consumer goodwill has clearly run out, so appealing to it, to the idea that it just needs some love and effort, is really not going to fly for people.

And this isn't an attempt to absolve toxicity. I am super glad THIS got popular on the SR reddit because it seems to have given people perspective of how absolutely loony toons frothing mad they were over minor stuff and how rude they were being to people. But discourse being bad on one side doesn't absolve one of bad discourse themselves, or allow one to ignore the reality of a situation just because some people are acting... really way below their best selves because of that reality.

One thing I will note is... I haven't seen anyone gush about 6e. Like I have seen people say 'its not that bad' or 'it was pretty nice' but attempts to sell 6e as a GREAT system worth the time and effort to switch to are thin on the ground. I obviously haven't been looking for them, but it does really feel like 6e fans are playing defense too hard rather than going on offense.

Like a lot of complaints about 6e are, ultimately, subjective examples of concerns and problem cases. Naturally subjective opinions can be more or less valid based on the reality of the evidence used to support them, but a good way to demonstrate why these subjective nay-saying points aren't the whole story would be some testimony about how SR actually plays and works out to be fun, rather than just easier or simpler, because people care about that as much as they care about nitpicks like the Movement Power Car Missile: No one picks an RPG because it is less onerous than another, or because it lacks a specific niche broken combo that is easy enough for the GM to say no to because it combines unintended rules.

People TALK about RPGs using this because we are all freaking nerds. Like the biggest nerds. But ultimately these issues are academic and what mostly matters is how conductive the RPG is to a good experience.

Why is 6e great? What awesome stuff happened BECAUSE one was playing 6e? Because I know a lot of cool stuff that happened for me that happened because I was playing 5e, warts and all, and 6e doesn't do anything to protect that and in some cases actively erodes it. I play SR despite feeling the line is going in a bad direction for those moments of sheer brilliance that 5e allowed, like having the samurai go full Jet Set Radio on an amazingly fast horizontal wall climb we ruled was a skimmer skate to move in and protect the principle their hacker buddy, taking 0 damage from the assault rifle rounds coming in. Or the time our Street Samurai adept just effortlessly dodged the attacks of a raving knife killer in the bowls of a cruise ship where our client was worried they would be assassinated, while the head of security they were fighting alongside took 5 stab wounds and KEPT ON FIGHTING. Or that time our drugged up gunslinger samurai just cool aid manned through a wall before unloading two Savalette guardians into some drekhead's groin because he couldn't pierce his milspec armor... while also surviving a two story fall onto the club floor like it was freaking Max Payne, and all as their first introduction to the group as a replacement PC!

A lot of those moments... don't make a ton of sense, or can't really happen that way in 6e now really. Like yeah, GM fiat and all that... but also the idea of forcing your way closer by flinging yourself through a club interior wall because you speedballed Jazz and Kami and are feeling extra saucy to maximize your chance of landing a critical called shot on a soak tank enemy to disable them doesn't... happen with attack rating. You have no reason to do that or care. You are just translating that into one less edge for your enemy or one more for yourself.

So what am I missing? Why do people LIKE 6e. That isn't a rhetorical BS question meant to shame you into admitting its bad. Like... actually use those moments where you were having a ton of fun, figure out how the mechanics supported that, and use that to construct good, active arguments FOR 6e, rather than against not liking it. Like the core issue is some people felt like SR had negative momentum, and some people felt it had positive, so the people who felt it had negative momentum won't care about it being simpler, but WOULD care about how actually fun it is!

Cuz like... I believe those moments exist. I just can't see them. I am, like all people, biased, and I am struggling to find the fun. Not the 'more simple' or 'more streamlined' or even 'more dangerous.' But the actual 'more fun' to make up for the fun that got taken out. So like actually tossing out information on why SR6 is fun would be a really great start to why skeptics should give it a chance.
« Last Edit: (03:33:24/09-21-19) by dezmont »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #91 on: (03:49:39/09-21-19) »
I look forward to engaging with you all in an earnest exchange of opinions that are, hopefully, free of some of the toxicity I've seen in this thread. I for one am a blank slate, and I hope that the release of 6th Edition brings many more like me back to the fold (or indeed, into the fold for perhaps the first time!). Ultimately, all I want for one of my favourite hobbies of all time is good things, and that is something I hope we can all agree on.
Fingers crossed. Let's hope we all manage to calm down, and also that we get some news about the errata status, because we can all agree those are needed.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

dezmont

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« Reply #92 on: (04:09:25/09-21-19) »
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.

0B

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« Reply #93 on: (09:21:54/09-21-19) »
And this isn't an attempt to absolve toxicity. I am super glad THIS got popular on the SR reddit because it seems to have given people perspective of how absolutely loony toons frothing mad they were over minor stuff and how rude they were being to people. But discourse being bad on one side doesn't absolve one of bad discourse themselves, or allow one to ignore the reality of a situation just because some people are acting... really way below their best selves because of that reality.

Yeah, I was half-expecting it to sit around 2-3 points and someone to just comment on how I should delete that post or something. Because honestly, if I want to go to a place where people are set in their opinions, are toxic to freelancers/creators/writers, and think jumping down the throat of whatever CGL "representative" (freelancer/unpaid errata team member/person who once did a SR stream/etc) is good for the creative process, I'd go to dumpshock. I won't link it, but I recall a thread from a few years ago about why freelancers don't hang out on dumpshock anymore, and it became self-demonstrating.

I think the subreddit's become the same way- I'm glad the mods instituted the rules in the sidebar. They're pretty straightforward, and can at least maintain a minimum level of civility. I've heard a couple of freelancers on various discords talk about how they didn't even want to visit the subreddit anymore because of how toxic it got. I'm kind of glad the SCN discord removed the 6e channel- it was nice to have somewhere to specifically talk about 6e so that it wouldn't derail conversations about 5e, but it was just turning into circular arguments.

Now, does all of this behavior mean people don't have points? No. Is it right for someone to have a strong emotional response to something they love being ruined in a new edition? (YMMV) Yes.

But there comes a point where negative criticism no longer is productive. Nobody wants to read through hundreds of words of personal attacks, cursing, and other vileness just to get at a few salient points the author might be making. I think it comes from a misunderstanding of what critique is. If the target audience is the consumer, then all this is fine- it's alright to let people know your opinion of what they're buying, and it helps people make purchasing decisions. But I don't like when people pretend that that sort of thing is in any way helpful for a creator. If a creator can't use the criticism, or doesn't want to wade through vitriol, then the criticism is not constructive.

I think to a certain extent, this sort of criticism isn't useful for new players, or players trying to get into the game. ZeroSum said it best.

Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.
Eh?

« Last Edit: (09:29:55/09-21-19) by 0B »

ZeroSum

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« Reply #94 on: (09:29:11/09-21-19) »
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.
WFTP?

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #95 on: (09:49:04/09-21-19) »
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.
WFTP?

I'm assuming Waiting For The Punchline.

But I could be way off.  There isn't enough context to be sure.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #96 on: (09:59:53/09-21-19) »
My situation has improved, recently, and 6th Edition seemed like a good time to jump back in, but I think I will leave it alone for now and catch up on some novels while the errata team does their thing.

If you aren't reading anything that makes you excited about Sixth World, this would seem the prudent course to take.

On the other hand, if reading about Sixth World gets you excited, and makes your wallet all tingly, by all means purchase it.  Read it for yourself, and form your own opinions.  If you like it, then draw enjoyment from it.  If you can have fun with it, then do so.

On the other hand, if there are not tingly feelings, or you aren't certain your group(s) will be adopting it...  It could be wise to hold out and see what happens after the early adopters handle the shake down of the system.

penllawen

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« Reply #97 on: (10:02:31/09-21-19) »
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.
WFTP?

I'm assuming Waiting For The Punchline.

But I could be way off.  There isn't enough context to be sure.
I suspect Working For The People ie the rule that lets you trade Nuyen for karma.

penllawen

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« Reply #98 on: (10:11:37/09-21-19) »
Now, does all of this behavior mean people don't have points? No. Is it right for someone to have a strong emotional response to something they love being ruined in a new edition? (YMMV) Yes.
I have a feeling the long term support for and discussion of older versions of SR will be better on Reddit, whereas this forum will be better for 6e. I expect therefore to maybe take a step back from posting here at some point soon, also.[/quote]I’m not sure about previous support, since we have pretty robust support in the previous editions sub-forum. We they may not have been overly active in the past, but previous editions weren’t as divisive as 6E.

Of course, I have my own bias against Reddit because of years of experience dealing with toxicity and piracy from a them.
« Last Edit: (12:59:55/09-21-19) by FastJack »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #99 on: (10:16:25/09-21-19) »
Errata team membership has to be a real life example of WFTP.
WFTP?

I'm assuming Waiting For The Punchline.

But I could be way off.  There isn't enough context to be sure.
I suspect Working For The People ie the rule that lets you trade Nuyen for karma.

That makes a whole heaploads more sense.

I concede to your superior thinking.  ;)

adzling

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« Reply #100 on: (11:25:27/09-21-19) »
But if you really did care about poor role balance, bad rules editing, and the game continuing in this weird direction where what shadowrunners do conceptually isn't nailed down well or in line with the fiction, SR6 is a major regression. There are some attempts to fix concerns, like buff magic getting nerfed in some ways, or the decker buy in being about 1/4th your resources, rather than 1/2 minimum, but no problem you cared about was actually fixed, and in many cases things got worse.

Like if you were not a fan of mages who increased attributed themselves and then ran around as a mini-samurai with a mega-samurai spirit helping them? If you had players literally quit SR forever (like I have) because they were so supremely frustrated with how unfair mages felt and how pressured they felt to be one? Guess what, they made that strategy comparatively stronger! A bane that literally tore your SR group apart, like it did mine, got worse! It just feels gross to have every single thing you have been complaining held back the game so much untouched, while things that didn't matter or felt good (Like mundane samurai being really good at staying alive to help create high point moments for them alongside the PC mage just summoning a force 8 to godzilla an entire complex because they can casually skate about fighting while ignoring bullets on their skimmers) got changed in ways that don't make any sense (From a balance perspective the idea of nerfing samurai is... actually amazingly incoherent. I get the soak change was an attempt to fix a GMing issue that only existed among GMs who weren't playing SR like a heist game and instead like a dungeon grinder, but the change was unarguably and objectively a nerf).

From THAT perspective? CGL comes across as amazingly tone-deaf to the actual issues they care about in the game, and combined with the fact these issues were really clearly a huge issue years before SR6 was even in development. So if you are in that boat, it honestly does feel like management doesn't care, or doesn't know what they are doing. People in the first boat see a mob crying for firings for no reason, but people in the second boat see that the captain at the helm hasn't... changed anything in a meaningful way. They didn't alter the course, they swapped the music in the record player, and because these issues have felt super critical in SR for a long time that is... really hard to forgive with a 'lets give them a chance to fix it.'

If SR felt broken to you by the end of the 5e line where magicrun hit a critical mass? 6e WAS the chance to fix it. So from that perspective calls for clemency, understanding, and patience are essentially calls to give up on holding a commercial product to any standard.

xclnt post Dezzmont, the quoted text above is a pretty excellent statement of my unfulfilled wishes for and view on 6e.
thank you
« Last Edit: (11:43:33/09-21-19) by adzling »

Hibiki54

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« Reply #101 on: (12:04:42/09-21-19) »
But if you really did care about poor role balance, bad rules editing, and the game continuing in this weird direction where what shadowrunners do conceptually isn't nailed down well or in line with the fiction, SR6 is a major regression. There are some attempts to fix concerns, like buff magic getting nerfed in some ways, or the decker buy in being about 1/4th your resources, rather than 1/2 minimum, but no problem you cared about was actually fixed, and in many cases things got worse.

Like if you were not a fan of mages who increased attributed themselves and then ran around as a mini-samurai with a mega-samurai spirit helping them? If you had players literally quit SR forever (like I have) because they were so supremely frustrated with how unfair mages felt and how pressured they felt to be one? Guess what, they made that strategy comparatively stronger! A bane that literally tore your SR group apart, like it did mine, got worse! It just feels gross to have every single thing you have been complaining held back the game so much untouched, while things that didn't matter or felt good (Like mundane samurai being really good at staying alive to help create high point moments for them alongside the PC mage just summoning a force 8 to godzilla an entire complex because they can casually skate about fighting while ignoring bullets on their skimmers) got changed in ways that don't make any sense (From a balance perspective the idea of nerfing samurai is... actually amazingly incoherent. I get the soak change was an attempt to fix a GMing issue that only existed among GMs who weren't playing SR like a heist game and instead like a dungeon grinder, but the change was unarguably and objectively a nerf).

From THAT perspective? CGL comes across as amazingly tone-deaf to the actual issues they care about in the game, and combined with the fact these issues were really clearly a huge issue years before SR6 was even in development. So if you are in that boat, it honestly does feel like management doesn't care, or doesn't know what they are doing. People in the first boat see a mob crying for firings for no reason, but people in the second boat see that the captain at the helm hasn't... changed anything in a meaningful way. They didn't alter the course, they swapped the music in the record player, and because these issues have felt super critical in SR for a long time that is... really hard to forgive with a 'lets give them a chance to fix it.'

If SR felt broken to you by the end of the 5e line where magicrun hit a critical mass? 6e WAS the chance to fix it. So from that perspective calls for clemency, understanding, and patience are essentially calls to give up on holding a commercial product to any standard.

xclnt post Dezzmont, the quoted text above is a pretty excellent statement of my unfulfilled wishes for and view on 6e.
thank you

That statement gave me a raging clue.

When I purchased the SR6 CRB at GenCon, I did so because I love the Shadowrun game, setting and I was looking forward to changes for the better. In some cases, such as The Matrix and actions, there were improvements. But there are too many downsides which included the hard nerf to my favorite archetype, the mundane Street Samurai/Tank, that I could not overlook the poor planning, decision-making, game design choices, editing, missing variables and overall bad reviews the updated system was receiving.

I'm actually dredding having to play SR6 for Shadowrun Missions when they will make the conversion. But I will stick to 5E outside of open play.
« Last Edit: (12:12:04/09-21-19) by Hibiki54 »

Lormyr

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« Reply #102 on: (12:23:07/09-21-19) »
I'm actually dredding having to play SR6 for Shadowrun Missions when they will make the conversion. But I will stick to 5E outside of open play.

I feel similar, but on the plus side they have plenty of time to improve on things before we get to that point if they choose to seize the opportunity.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #103 on: (13:03:46/09-21-19) »
I'm actually dredding having to play SR6 for Shadowrun Missions when they will make the conversion. But I will stick to 5E outside of open play.

I feel similar, but on the plus side they have plenty of time to improve on things before we get to that point if they choose to seize the opportunity.

Season 10 is already available to CDT agents, and is in 5e.  Between it and the 2019 CMPs (also in 5e) there's lots of 5e SRM gaming to go before the next SRM season next summer.  There'll be more 6we books out by then, and I've seen an awful little buzz about JMH having said in an interview that 6we Rigger book is slated for Gen Con release next year.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #104 on: (13:44:15/09-21-19) »
Of course that means Risky Driving won't be street-legal at the start of con season, but hey that's still awesome to hear.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!