NEWS

How do you steal anything in the 6th world?

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markelphoenix

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« Reply #15 on: <09-15-19/1017:15> »
does it immediately degrade to Used when transplanted?
Isn't that the definition of Used? That it is second hand....? That it was configured and customized for someone else's body. And this is the reason why it cost less resources but more essence.

Yeah...part where I get cognitive dissonance is, I assume fluff wise, materials and components in Delta > Beta > Alpha > Standard, if that is the case, shouldn't there be an used (Alpha), used (Beta), used (Delta), and then just used (standard), or would it be that they're already made from higher grade components and processes, they could be 'reattuned' to your specific biology?

penllawen

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« Reply #16 on: <09-15-19/1019:04> »
does it immediately degrade to Used when transplanted?
Isn't that the definition of Used? That it is second hand....? That it was configured and customized for someone else's body. And this is the reason why it cost less resources but more essence.
That's my take.

To further discourage my players from breaking down every corpse they make for parts, I also say:

1) all cyberware becomes Used immediately, regardless of previous normal/alpha/beta/delta status. What makes alpha/beta/delta special is how well they are engineered and customised for you, not anything inherent (and transferable) in the 'ware itself.
2) the listed price for cyberware is partly parts and partly labour. You're only getting fence value on the "parts" part. For invasive whole-body ware, like wired reflexes, the labour is a lot of the cost.
3) it's illegal stuff anyway, so even before the above you're only getting pennies on the dollar as it has to be rendered untraceable, stealth RFIDs eliminated, etc.

For example, they took out someone with ~1.25 M¥ of alpha/betaware, used a chop shop to dispose of the body, and walked off with maybe a few tens of k¥ in extra money for the cyber the chop shop took off her.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #17 on: <09-15-19/1019:20> »
I would absolutely not allow a PC to bypass acquisition rolls for high grade cyberware by implanting looted ware.

You killed a guard with Deltaware and had it implanted yourself? It's used grade now.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: <09-15-19/1147:19> »
Unless you find a guard that's genetically almost your twin it would never work. And that's assuming it's not too assimilated to not get damaged in extraction.
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markelphoenix

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« Reply #19 on: <09-15-19/1723:56> »
So, lets play with that scenario of Delta-Ware from a corp goon.

Agreed, unaltered, it would be used, based upon the discussions we've had. Is there no precedence for realigning the 'Ware to a different genetic profile? You're telling me the corps wouldn't reclaim their operatives remains and try to recoup the investment of the ware from the body? That a procedure to 'recycle' or 'realign' the Delta Ware had never even been considered by the corps?

Given the fluff on the corps, seems very wasteful given their strong profit/power focus.

penllawen

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« Reply #20 on: <09-15-19/1744:42> »
I’m suggesting the process of “realigning” it - in terms of effort and expense - is no different to what makes deltaware special in the first place. Hence, if you strip deltaware out of someone and want to put it in someone else and it still count as deltaware, then that process is no easier and no cheaper than if you took brand new off the shelf ordinary grade stuff and put that into someone as deltaware.

Think of it as: the secret sauce in alpha/beta/delta ‘ware is the install and customisation process, not the thing itself.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #21 on: <09-15-19/1757:47> »
I'd imagine anyone who's ever used a refurbished smartphone understands the peril of using refurbished cyberware.

And judging what the Corps would do only goes so far.  There's no reason to believe that if a given piece of deltaware costs X hundred thousand nuyen for a shadowrunner to get, that it costs that same amount of resources for a corp to get.  Heck, a megacorp can just use in-house brands of cyberware at whatever cost it is to manufacture.  Of course they'd still bill MSRP against their employees' salaries...
« Last Edit: <09-15-19/1800:13> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #22 on: <09-15-19/1812:25> »
If you buy sensors you pay more than some drones cost even if they have them included. So yeah the corps usually are cheaper off themselves. Especially since they already own delta clinics for the elite management so they have some spare slots and resources for their elite forces.
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markelphoenix

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« Reply #23 on: <09-15-19/1853:48> »
Hmm, thanks for the responses. Haven't gotten to read a lot of lore/fluff around Cyberware and it's grades. What ya'll say makes sense, though. Any splat books or lit that kind of delve into the specifics of Cyber and Bio?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #24 on: <09-15-19/1907:22> »
An old 2e SB called Shadowtech has the seminal lore about bioware, and it's got a lot of good background info on cyberware too.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #25 on: <09-15-19/2006:58> »
An old 2e SB called Shadowtech has the seminal lore about bioware, and it's got a lot of good background info on cyberware too.

thanks, chummer

penllawen

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« Reply #26 on: <09-16-19/0328:17> »
What ya'll say makes sense, though. Any splat books or lit that kind of delve into the specifics of Cyber and Bio?
I will add the caveat that -- unless MC or SSDR know better -- I don't think what I wrote above is exactly canon. I don't think it contradicts canon, but it does extend it a little bit to curb looting.

GuardDuty

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« Reply #27 on: <09-16-19/0627:14> »
What ya'll say makes sense, though. Any splat books or lit that kind of delve into the specifics of Cyber and Bio?
I will add the caveat that -- unless MC or SSDR know better -- I don't think what I wrote above is exactly canon. I don't think it contradicts canon, but it does extend it a little bit to curb looting.

According to Man and Machine (3E), deltaware implants are always custom built, and literally get wired as they are implanted "to ensure perfect compatibility and flawless construction".  It goes on to say that secondhand deltaware is considered beta grade in its new host.

Also (at least as far as 3E went), removing a cybernetic implant from it's owner incurred automatic and permanent damage to the implant.  It seems rather dubious that a corp would have an operative important enough to give delta grade implants to, but use a damaged implant.  Would they try to pass it off onto a runner that managed to negotiate access to their facilities?  Hmm...

markelphoenix

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« Reply #28 on: <09-16-19/1853:27> »
What ya'll say makes sense, though. Any splat books or lit that kind of delve into the specifics of Cyber and Bio?
I will add the caveat that -- unless MC or SSDR know better -- I don't think what I wrote above is exactly canon. I don't think it contradicts canon, but it does extend it a little bit to curb looting.

According to Man and Machine (3E), deltaware implants are always custom built, and literally get wired as they are implanted "to ensure perfect compatibility and flawless construction".  It goes on to say that secondhand deltaware is considered beta grade in its new host.

Also (at least as far as 3E went), removing a cybernetic implant from it's owner incurred automatic and permanent damage to the implant.  It seems rather dubious that a corp would have an operative important enough to give delta grade implants to, but use a damaged implant.  Would they try to pass it off onto a runner that managed to negotiate access to their facilities?  Hmm...

I think that was kind of what I was poking at from the corp greed angle, I'd imagine reclaimed delta ware would be resold as beta ware, then. Also, if they did act upon that, wouldn't a corp want to research how to make the ware more durable for their agents, so that upon recycling it, it wouldn't necessarily degrade?

GuardDuty

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« Reply #29 on: <09-16-19/1904:00> »
I would imagine they have researched it, and it's either currently impossible or extremely unreliable.