NEWS

what is visible in AR?

  • 28 Replies
  • 584 Views

Antique

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 8
« on: (16:36:47/09-04-19) »
PC1 is walking down main street with a trenchcoat and hidden on him are 5 grenades, 1 ingram and an ares predator. His comlink is rating 6. Every WIRELESS devices is turned on. Grenades and ingram are linked to his comlink PAN.
So what does Gruff the cop sees when he looks at PC1?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2425
« Reply #1 on: (16:52:05/09-04-19) »
It depends on whether the observer is currently using AR or is not using any Matrix User Mode at all.

Anyone with a commlink and image link can see AROs, but that's not the same thing as being in AR.  At least not in 6we, at least.  (My understanding in 5e was that the trinay condition everyone was in at all times was "No Commlink/Commlink is shut off, AR, and VR. Whether I grokked that correctly or not for 5e, that's not how it is in 6we....)

So if the cop is just "hanging out" all normal like, he'll only see the guns and grenades if he passes a perception test as described in the concealing gear rules (pg 246).  However, PC1 could still be broadcasting AROs that are evident to everyone nearby with a commlink and imagelink.  So if a hacker makes PC1 broadcast a holographic red arrow that flashes "GUN HIDDEN HERE" the cop will still see that.

OTOH if the cop is actively using AR, a matrix perception test against his PAN is what's called for (see pg. 182-183).  Now if the guns and grenades aren't running silent, there's no need to spot them. They're just automagically visible to anyone who bothers to perform a matrix perception check, although a matrix perception check still could get specific details at GM discretion, like how long the user has owned it, what specific make/model gun, etc.
« Last Edit: (17:02:43/09-04-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2350
« Reply #2 on: (17:27:00/09-04-19) »
6E Matrix Perception tests have a one minute base time unless you've got a Cyberbeck or Resonance Attribute.  So if Guy with lots of bombs is is running silent he is fine until a dedicated Matrix Security person checks him out in AR.

5E Matrix Perception is a Complex Action (normally) so even if Guy with Lots of Bombs is running silent anyone that takes a tick to check out his PAN will likely spot the Icons unless G.w.L.o.B. has a really fancy Commlink with some Sleaze.  Then it's an opposed test.

If G.w.L.o.B. isn't running silent the AR Icons would be obvious to anyone in AR (or VR), 5th Edition would be everyone within 100m.  6th Edition it's unspecified and the GM can make the call.   

Edit: Sorry, or the Wrapper program needs to be running.
« Last Edit: (17:30:00/09-04-19) by Hobbes »

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11024
  • Spouter of Random Words
    • CanRay's Artistic Work
« Reply #3 on: (21:38:44/09-04-19) »
It also depends on how cranked up the person has their AR settings.

The recent No Future book with it's slipcover provides an excellent example of just how little you can see, and how much it can twist a world view.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
« Reply #4 on: (08:13:45/09-05-19) »
If all devices are linked to his Commlink PAN then all the cop would see is the PAN as a casual observer, but if the cop then makes a matrix perception check then he will see all active wireless devices unless the guy is actively hiding them and then it becomes an opposed test
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #5 on: (08:55:39/09-05-19) »
If all devices are linked to his Commlink PAN then all the cop would see is the PAN as a casual observer, but if the cop then makes a matrix perception check then he will see all active wireless devices unless the guy is actively hiding them and then it becomes an opposed test
How often are, say, beat cops on patrol doing Matrix Perception checks? How often would lobby security guards in a moderately secure building do so? I just realised I have no real feel for how often players should face this.

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2350
« Reply #6 on: (09:46:13/09-05-19) »
In 5E Matrix Perception is a single complex action, so it's probably routinely done.  6E Matrix Perception is a Minute so, almost never done by anything other than a Matrix Specialist.  And odds are slim the guy with the 60K Nuyen Cyberdeck is just watching people come through the Lobby. 

For 6E I would say a Matrix Perception check would be part of an escalation if the PCs have done something to raise suspicion.  Guard or beat cop calls in the Matrix support if they suspect something, or takes the full Minute to scrutinize the PAN Icons. 

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
« Reply #7 on: (09:49:42/09-05-19) »
Well when I run things, street cops usually don't bother with checking you out unless there is something obvious that draws attention and therefore triggers further investigation.

Security guards are a different matter, but much the same thing if you are in a "public" area ... but if you have to get past them into a secure area they will do a detailed check at a minimum unless you have some good method of making them think otherwise.

In other words ... if you are in a public area don't be wearing obvious armor and packing any kind of heat unless it is easily concealable, don't be doing any suspicious behavior, and don't cause any trouble ... look like you belong there. Most importantly do not run SILENT!!!! Number one give away in a situation like that is to stand out in a crowd of nice legal wage slaves by hiding something you would normally leave wide open. Even if it just a simple burner commlink ... make sure you have a reliable fake SIN on it and run it public!
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 8537
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #8 on: (10:04:28/09-05-19) »
*Random Matrix Perception* 2 Concealed weapons, Firearms and Concealed Carry license, idgaf
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #9 on: (10:18:45/09-05-19) »
In 5E Matrix Perception is a single complex action, so it's probably routinely done.  6E Matrix Perception is a Minute so, almost never done by anything other than a Matrix Specialist.  And odds are slim the guy with the 60K Nuyen Cyberdeck is just watching people come through the Lobby. 
Right, this is the right sort of tone I want to strike for my table. And I like that chance in Matrix Perception time from 5->6e, it supports what I want: hostile Matrix Perception is a thing, but not a thing you have to think about constantly.

In other words ... if you are in a public area don't be wearing obvious armor and packing any kind of heat unless it is easily concealable, don't be doing any suspicious behavior, and don't cause any trouble ... look like you belong there. Most importantly do not run SILENT!!!! Number one give away in a situation like that is to stand out in a crowd of nice legal wage slaves by hiding something you would normally leave wide open. Even if it just a simple burner commlink ... make sure you have a reliable fake SIN on it and run it public!
Also good advice / a petard to hoist my players upon (delete as appropriate) :)

*Random Matrix Perception* 2 Concealed weapons, Firearms and Concealed Carry license, idgaf
Eh, doesn't work as soon as you have any illegal devices in there, like cyberdecks, say. Plus at this point you need to start thinking about fake SIN and licence ratings, which is a lot of dice / maths for a "walking past a cop in the street" scenario. I favour a lighter-weight approach, saving the "now they're checking your SIN and stuff" for a little further down the escalation path.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5098
« Reply #10 on: (06:20:05/09-07-19) »
PC1 is walking down main street with a trenchcoat and hidden on him are 5 grenades, 1 ingram and an ares predator. His comlink is rating 6. Every WIRELESS devices is turned on. Grenades and ingram are linked to his comlink PAN.
So what does Gruff the cop sees when he looks at PC1?
In SR5 Gruff the cop would see PC1's PAN Icon and his more dangerous icons such as Grenades and the Ingram would stick out as Icons on their own, unless PC1 is trying to hide them (by running them silent) in which case Gruff the cop will not see them at all and he would just see PC1's PAN Icon.

Gruff the cop would also automatically see the fake SIN and fake licenses that PC1 choose to not protect. If Gruff the cop use his SIN verification software on the system identification number he would learn 4 things about PC1.
  • The name that belong to the fake SIN
  • Place of birth
  • The birth date (age)
  • The Nation that issued the SIN
(but there are no photos etc)

If PC1's commlink is also running silent then Gruff the cop would not even see PC1's PAN Icon (nor his fake SIN) and that would probably make him suspicious enough to start looking for it....

If Gruff the cop for some reason decide to filter out his AR vision to only show silent running icons then he can do that. Silent running icons are not really very hidden at all. To get a 'list' of all silent running icons in the vicinity is actually as obvious as noticing a neon sign or a running crowd for normal perception (it only require a single hit on a Simple Matrix Perception Test which is a Complex Action that is resolved with Computer + Intuition [Data Processing]).

Gruff the cop is now 'aware' of all silent icons in the vicinity. Since he in this case don't know what he is specifically looking for he get to spot them one by one at random. This is resolved with an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test (when it comes to PC1's devices he doesn't have a Sleaze rating so he will just defend against the test by rolling Logic as a dice pool of its own, since firewall is not part of the equation PC1 also doesn't really benefit from having a high rated commlink in this case).

If Gruff the cop for some reason would already be 'aware' of any of PC1's hidden devices (perhaps PC1 is holding one of the wireless enabled silent running grenades in his hand or perhaps PC1's commlink is running silent and Gruff the cop want to spot his PAN Icon) then Gruff the cop would already be 'aware' that the Icon is out there and could just take an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test to spot it directly.
« Last Edit: (06:28:49/09-07-19) by Xenon »

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 312
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #11 on: (13:16:25/09-07-19) »
That's... A heck of a lot. Does your table actually do all that every time the PCs walk past a cop on the street?

BeCareful

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 84
« Reply #12 on: (19:27:35/09-07-19) »
It's more a list of hypothetical possibilities. There's an unintended one missing: if Gruff doesn't have AR on, he'll look at PC1 and see someone in a trenchcoat, possibly with something bulky stuck beneath it.

Or, if the guns had a use of the Wrapper program to look to all of AR as if they're a set of marital aids, (with matching intimacy enhancer for a concealed quick-draw holster) then hopefully nobody's going to bother looking any closer.
"Welcome to Shadowrun, where the biggest obstacle is you!"

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5098
« Reply #13 on: (04:03:41/09-08-19) »
It's more a list of hypothetical possibilities.
This :)

If PC1 is running his dangerous icons in silent mode (typical case) or even wireless disabled then all Gruff the cop sees is the PAN Icon (and the fake SIN) of PC1. All is well. Really no reason to investigate any further. You are blending in.

There are a few basic situations you would want to avoid if you wish to not attract unwanted attention;
  • Walking around in broad daylight with PAN running silent (or wireless disabled)
  • Walking around in broad daylight without a fake SIN.
  • Walking around in broad daylight with weapons not running silent (or wireless disabled)
  • Walking around in broad daylight with shown or drawn weapons (or ballistic masks, helmets or heavy armor)
  • Walking around in broad daylight with sustained or quickened spells.


There's an unintended one missing: if Gruff doesn't have AR on, he'll look at PC1 and see someone in a trenchcoat, possibly with something bulky stuck beneath it.
Yes, of course. I missed that one. Thank you.

There is one more beyond that one as well;
PC1 may be running everything wireless disabled. In that case Gruff the cop will not see the PAN Icon of PC1 which might raise suspicion, but in this case no matter how much he look he will not be able to spot the icons of PC1's devices.


Or, if the guns had a use of the Wrapper program to look to all of AR as if they're a set of marital aids, (with matching intimacy enhancer for a concealed quick-draw holster) then hopefully nobody's going to bother looking any closer.
Note that you need a device capable of running a cyberprogram (such as a cyberdeck) if you wish to run Wrapper.

Also, if I wish to spot the Icon of your wielded smartgun then I would spot the Icon of your smartgun even if it's Matrix Icon currently look like a medkit.

BeCareful

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 84
« Reply #14 on: (13:33:09/09-08-19) »
Yep, that's why "hopefully nobody's going to bother to look any closer." Once someone actually makes that Matrix Perception test and notices that your "Medkit" actually isn't one, then that's some probable cause right there. I figure using it to disguise your cyberdeck as something unobtrusive means nobody will bother with more than a cursory glance, and you can have it on and not silent. (Unless you're going somewhere where you'll get more than that cursory glance, in which case it'd be better to put it in silent or off completely)
"Welcome to Shadowrun, where the biggest obstacle is you!"