NEWS

Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future

  • 51 Replies
  • 1315 Views

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2457
« Reply #15 on: (12:22:41/08-31-19) »
Previous editions specify that Indirect Spells are thrown/fired/projected from a Mage on the physical plane and are obvious.  I didn't see that stated in any likely spots in 6th edition.

Could be change blindness.  Could be intentional.  Could be hidden somewhere and I missed it.  FWIW I suspect its either change blindness or I missed it. 

Not that it changes much, 2 Stunballs per turn will clean up a lot of chaff.  Teams with a second mage or some other Alpha Strike build will simply wipe a bunch of tokens off the map at the start of combat.  I personally think that's fine, if an NPC is important give them a name and chance.  I have little sympathy for Red chip #2, it's purpose is to make the PCs look good.  YMMV. 

And... totally derailed.  Sorry Penllawen.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2891
« Reply #16 on: (12:24:30/08-31-19) »
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.
I'm pretty sure there's an unspoken assumption that obvious stuff doesn't require a perception roll.  Throwing a fireball? Everyone sees it. No test necessary.
I'm with you on this. Indirect magic spells are surely hella obvious.

Quote
You're using Increase Attribute to buff your Charisma while talking to that pretty young thing in the bar? He/she gets the cited perception roll to notice.
Wait, what about...

Quote
Of course, the sparse wording on the crunch leaves a lot of interpretation still.  Does the target of your seduction get a chance to perceive the sustained magic you cast before walking up, or only if you cast directly in their presence?  Personally, I'm not looking forward to this argument again for this edition...
...yes, this. What about this?

I'd silently assumed it was only the latter - the person is noticing spellcasting, the action, not noticing active magic. But I'd given it zero thought and now I am I'm not at all sure. I assume this is a well-worn topic around these parts?

There's a thread discussing this very thing for the 5e context.  Looks like the conundrum is essentially the same in 6we, although what's new is at this point the previous edition left it ambiguous, rather than there being a firm precedent to continue.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #17 on: (12:27:26/08-31-19) »
And... totally derailed.  Sorry Penllawen.
Hah, no worries, I think it's a perfectly croumulant discussion.

tequila

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 186
« Reply #18 on: (13:18:39/08-31-19) »
Thanks for posting this penllawen! Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
#thistasergoesto11

Quote from: Tarislar
ArmTech MGL-12: Nothing says love like a 3 round burst of HE Grenade to hit something for 32P
Nuff said.  :-X

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #19 on: (14:25:10/08-31-19) »
Thanks for posting this penllawen! Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
No worries! If you take a pass at it, Iíd like to see what you come up with. Iím sure thereís ways to improve.

Trying to cram Wired Reflexes IV in is interesting, for example, and could be compelling if the rules change around how many actions it gives you. Iíd like to see Alan get more ways to rebuild Edge, too, but I couldnít find any; perhaps a super-high-AR secondary weapon?

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #20 on: (14:30:44/08-31-19) »
No more than 5 Minor Actions at the start of your turn.  Wired 4 (or whatever) puts you at 1 Major 6 Minor, presumably you'd be allowed to convert 4 Minor to a Major "Before" your turn...

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 550
« Reply #21 on: (15:22:03/08-31-19) »
Iīve heard some rumors that behind the veil of NDA, thereīs already some talk about Anticipate. My guess would be that there will be some kind of target limit (like 2 or 3), a word on the interaction (or non-interaction) with FA-Attacks, and maybe a word on the question if BF multiattacks and dual-wielding Multiattacks can be combined in the first place.

Apart from that: I find it bit bipolar how everyone was like "Being a Sammie isnīt worth it anymore!" and "Pink Mohawk is dead!" and then penllawen comes up with this prime pink-mohawk example of a dedicated dual-wield streetsam with two readied SMGs laying waste to group of grunts[1] by using Anticipation to its fullest potential, and suddenly, thatīs the new proof that SR6 suxxx omg. Iīve seen crazier things than this. At least Alan is having fun ::)

[1]Who all happen to stand around at just the right spot, with everyone rolling averages and, most importantly, no one using Edge or Defense Actions to defend themselfes. As long as they are not surprised, everyone in this team could use 1 Minor to Dodge (Athletics 4) and another Minor to Hit the dirt (another +2) if thatīs not enough.

This is one of the reasons why I donít like the edge system. I actually donít mind you shooting to 4 or 5 people in your turn. But that should be a function of you investing in ware not having 4 edge. As while you are street sam anticipatory Alan. Street slow as a slug decker with 4 edge can do the same thing just not with the 2nd major to finish off some poor idiot.

Provided that said decker has two readied SMGs and a dice pool similar to that of a dedicated Streetsam. Without the latter, he will deal less damage and have a higher chance to miss some of those targets entirely, especially if they play their cards right and have some actions and Edge left for themselfes. And then you just stand there, with two smoking SMGs in your hands, (likely) without cover, 4 less Edge and 1-0 minor actions left. Not the smartest move.
« Last Edit: (15:51:25/08-31-19) by Finstersang »

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #22 on: (15:54:10/08-31-19) »
Iīve heard some rumors that behind the veil of NDA, thereīs already some talk about Anticipate. My guess would be that there will be some kind of target limit (like 2 or 3), a word on the interaction (or non-interaction) with FA-Attacks, and maybe a word on the question if BF multiattacks and dual-wielding Multiattacks can be combined in the first place.
Having paged back and forth many times to get my head around it, I certainly think the whole fire modes / multiple attacks / Anticipate / dual wielding are would benefit from a much clearer writeup that also makes the interaction between these rules explicit instead of implicit. And I donít think thereíll be any GMs crying into their soyweisser if Anticipate gets nerfed fairly seriously in some way. Poor old Alanís one-trick pony is a bit too tricksy.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2385
« Reply #23 on: (16:14:47/08-31-19) »

Provided that said decker has two readied SMGs and a dice pool similar to that of a dedicated Streetsam. Without the latter, he will deal less damage and have a higher chance to miss some of those targets entirely, especially if they play their cards right and have some actions and Edge left for themselfes. And then you just stand there, with two smoking SMGs in your hands, (likely) without cover, 4 less Edge and 1-0 minor actions left. Not the smartest move.

Yeah but that's just one skill and a good agility and I guess ambidexterity if you really want this, edge as well but that is something valuable to deckers on its own not just for this build.  Might not match the SAM but they can get damn close as they probably wont have a 10 agility.(though maybe I expect resources will be high for deckers like SAMS.)

And so yeah this does not seem to be a look Sammies are good idea, more a look edge which everyone has is good post. Since I suspect using minors will come up here and there, I don't expect too many two majors happening so attacking multiple times will more be through this move than having a second major. Maybe people will go all into offense, but don't be surprised when your GM then has people focus fire you since you used up all your minors on offense leaving nothing for defense.  Also I feel the complaint was this system was only pink mohawk not could not be. Bikini bandits and all.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
« Reply #24 on: (18:42:07/08-31-19) »
Alan is very similar to what I was planning to build.
Note that his listed Praetor Attack Ratings are too high, Laser sight and Smartgun system does not stack (he also don't seem to have a smartlink).

You should also note that this is not really a fully functional character. It is mostly a one-trick-pony character created just to prove the point that anticipation might be useful when the situation is right.

For example Alan don't have any fake SIN (which mean he can't use public transportation). Adding on top of that he don't even have a single point in piloting and he don't own any transportation. So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet?? Police are bound to stop him a few times before he reach his destination. But then he also don't have any social skills at all and charisma of 1 (which mean he can't even default when telling a lie). Alan also don't have any fake licences for his weapon arsenal. Alan also don't have any less than lethal options, no points at all in close combat, no silent ways of neutralizing opponents (no silencers and only explosive ammo) and no attack options at all at distances beyond medium range (only shotguns and SMGs).

A key ingredient in this build is the ambidextrous quality. Without it he would have to split the dice pool when making attacks with off-hand (even if using anticipation).

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #25 on: (02:50:00/09-01-19) »
Note that his listed Praetor Attack Ratings are too high, Laser sight and Smartgun system does not stack (he also don't seem to have a smartlink).
My mistake, I missed both those things. He has leftover money and essence to get the smartgun link.

Quote
You should also note that this is not really a fully functional character. It is mostly a one-trick-pony character created just to prove the point that anticipation might be useful when the situation is right.
When is the situation not right to bust out 4x attacks in a turn?

Quote
For example Alan don't have any fake SIN (which mean he can't use public transportation). Adding on top of that he don't even have a single point in piloting and he don't own any transportation. So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet?? Police are bound to stop him a few times before he reach his destination. But then he also don't have any social skills at all and charisma of 1 (which mean he can't even default when telling a lie). Alan also don't have any fake licences for his weapon arsenal. Alan also don't have any less than lethal options, no points at all in close combat, no silent ways of neutralizing opponents (no silencers and only explosive ammo) and no attack options at all at distances beyond medium range (only shotguns and SMGs).
Alan has 35,000 nuyen and 20 karma left to finish chargen with, which is enough to fix these issues; I didn't think I needed to create a laundry list of normal runner gear on his char sheet and account for every nuyen to evaluate his combat effectiveness. And I thought most people would take it as read that he'd buy that stuff if he was a real character. Obviously he should have fake SINs and licences, some different weapons, some S'n'S ammo, a lifestyle, etc etc. He also needs some of SR6's amazingly powerful grenades of course -- no 2080 street sam is fully dressed without them!

And sure, his skill list is a bit focused. But thanks to SR6's much wider skills, he's not as terrible as he looks at first glance. Let's convert his skills back to SR5 for a moment; he has the equivalent of

Longarms, Pistols, Rifles, Shotguns - all at dice pool 18
Automatics at dice pool 20
Archery, Gymnastics, Running, Swimming, Throwing Weapons - all at dice pool 15
Disguise, Palming - all at dice pool 17
Sneaking at dice pool 19
Perception at 10 (visual at 12)

That's not bad!

If you really feel he needs some social skills (and I don't disagree), it wouldn't hurt to drop a rank off Perception and a few off Sneaking, drop the Impaired Attribute (Cha) to 2 levels, drop a few ranks in Built Tough to balance the quality karma, drop Wil and Int a point each, put Cha up to 3, and take a few ranks in Con. He'd still have a tiny dice pool and have to Edge any important Con rolls but he could do it. Hell, if you end up losing a few ranks off the gun skills to put Con up some more, it still wouldn't matter much I don't think. "Oh no I only put 80 dice down instead of 100 when using Anticipate," said no combat monster ever.

Quote
A key ingredient in this build is the ambidextrous quality. Without it he would have to split the dice pool when making attacks with off-hand (even if using anticipation).
Indeed. At 4 karma points, I think it's a steal that every character should have, because any character that can point a gun can get some utility out of Anticipate.
« Last Edit: (02:53:13/09-01-19) by penllawen »

penllawen

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
« Reply #26 on: (12:50:26/09-01-19) »
    So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet??
    This got me thinking...

    Alan's DR is: 7 points of body, +1 from his bone lacing, +4 from his armour jacket, +1 from his helmet for a total of 13. So if he leaves the helmet at home, that will only matter if he's shot at with a gun with an Attack Rating of exactly 16. (Any more, the attacker would gain Edge regardless; any less, Alan denies the attacker any Edge without the helmet.)

    Here's all the ways I could find to make AR 16 with the core rulebook:

    • Barret Model 121 anti-materiel rifle, SS, at Far range (but without using a smartgun system, APDS ammo, or bipod)
    • Ares Alpha, Stoner-Ares M202, or RPK HMG at Near range, SS, with APDS ammo, a bipod, and a smartgun system
    • FN-HAR, Remington 900, or Ruger 101 as above but at Medium range
    • Ares Desert Strike, as above but at all ranges except Close
    • Walther Palm Pistol, at Close range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
    • FN P93 Praetor or PJSS Model 55 at Near range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
    • Ranger Arms SM-5, at Extreme range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
    • RPK HMG, at Far range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod

    (The above list assumes that RAI is that SA guns can choose to fire in SS. If not, the AR penalty for firing in SA mode messes up the maths, most of these guns don't list SS as a fire mode. If we strictly abide by RAW, then the list gets a lot shorter.)

    I might have missed a few combinations when I was paging back and forth but I think I got most of them. This list isn't nothing, but it is a very specific list of particular guns, mods, and ranges. Outside of these exact combinations, the helmet does nothing for Alan. So on balance, I think Alan can risk leaving the helmet at home, and in return be less conspicuous.

    (This, I think, is exactly the kind of thing people are talking about when they say they don't like how armour feels underpowered in SR6.)

    Edit - minor typos[/list]
    « Last Edit: (14:20:18/09-01-19) by penllawen »

    Stainless Steel Devil Rat

    • *
    • Errata Team
    • Prime Runner
    • ***
    • Posts: 2891
    « Reply #27 on: (13:06:06/09-01-19) »
      So I guess he plan on walking to his destination. With two shotguns and two SMGs. While wearing a bike helmet??
      This got me thinking...

      Alan's DR is: 7 points of body, +1 from his bone lacing, +4 from his armour jacket, +1 from his helmet for a total of 13. So if he leaves the helmet at home, that will only matter if he's shot at with a gun with an Attack Rating of exactly 16. (Any more, the attacker would gain Edge regardless; any less, Alan denies the attacker any Edge without the helmet.)

      Here's all the ways I could find to make AR 16 with the core rulebook:

      • Barret Model 121 anti-materiel rifle, SS, at Far range (but without using a smartgun system, APDS ammo, or bipod)
      • Ares Alpha, Stoner-Ares M202, or RPK HMG at Near range, SS, with APDS ammo, a bipod, and a smartgun system
      • FN-HAR, Remington 900, or Ruger 101 as above but at Medium range
      • Ares Desert Strike, as above but at all ranges except Close
      • Walther Palm Pistol, at Close range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
      • FN P93 Praetor or PJSS Model 55 at Near range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
      • Ranger Arms SM-5, at Extreme range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod
      • RPK HMG, at Far range, with any two out of: a smartgun system, APDS, and a bipod

      (The above list assumes that RAI is that SA guns can choose to fire in SS. If not, the AR penalty for firing in SA mode messes up the maths, most of these guns don't list SS as a fire mode. If we strictly abide by RAW, then the list gets a lot shorter.)

      I might have missed a few combinations when I was paging back and forth but I think I got most of them. This list isn't nothing, but it is a very specific list of particular guns, mods, and ranges. Outside of these exact combinations, the helmet does nothing for Alan. So on balance, I think Alan can risk leaving the helmet at home, and being less conspicuous.

      (This, I think, is exactly the kind of thing people are talking about when they say they don't like how armour feels underpowered in SR6.)[/list]

      On the other hand, you could look at the helmet's +1 DR as having haved 35 karma that wasn't necessary to go from 6 to 7 Body.

      Edit: That's actually a potential 47 karma if he's Human.
      « Last Edit: (13:07:55/09-01-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
      RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

      penllawen

      • *
      • Omae
      • ***
      • Posts: 477
      • Let's go. In and out. Twenty minute milk run.
      « Reply #28 on: (13:08:28/09-01-19) »
      a) Alanís body is 5(7), so itís 25 points of karma if you want to look at it this way.

      b) Thatís only true if you ignore that the Body stat has value beyond its contribution to the Defence Rating, not least of which is the soak roll.

      Stainless Steel Devil Rat

      • *
      • Errata Team
      • Prime Runner
      • ***
      • Posts: 2891
      « Reply #29 on: (13:11:15/09-01-19) »
      And of course it also matters if he got there via karma or attribute points.

      Either way, the +1 DR means a whole lot more than "the list of exactly AR16 attacks is short".
      RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.