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Adepts confusion

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Moonrunner

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« on: (20:44:08/09-09-19) »
A new player in our local game posted the following in our Discord server channel because he wants to play a Physical Adept and is confused on how some things work.  I am also playing a Physical Adept in the game and was also a bit confused about some of these aspects.  Thankfully Hobbes created a character for me and aided me quite a bit in understanding it all, as much as we have until Catalyst actually clarifies some of these glaring issues.

Our player asked:

"I haven't seen a clear answer on the forums about adepts, so could we houserule things until the official rules are clarified?

Point A: Page 63 - "Metatype (Adjustment Points)" - "Different metatypes are available at each priority with a variable number of points to use to buy Edge, boost specific attributes for that metatype, and/or enhance Magic or Resonance." Point B: Page 157 - "Power Points" - "The key measurements of power in adepts are their power points. These points are used by adept characters to buy the powers that will enhance their abilities. Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point." The rules here do not place any limits on when or how power points increase. The rules only state that each point of additional Magic grants an additional power point. Point C: Page 65 - "Magic/Resonance" – “These ratings can be increased using adjustment points from the Metatype column or using Karma in the Final Touches stage.” The rules again specifically state that adjustment points can be used to increase magic.

However, on the next page (page 66), in the same section as this quote, the rules state:
Point D: Page 66 – “Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments) that they use to purchase adept powers. Question: What does the parenthetical on page 66 mean? Does “before any adjustments” mean that any increases to magic from adjustments eliminate the rule (stated twice on two different pages of the rules) that as magic increases the adept’s power points also increase? The rules do state that you can use karma in the Final Touches stage to increase magic. Unlike Adjustment Points, there is no mention on any limits to increasing Magic with karma, so it seems that the use of Karma for this would be permissible. So the big question is could we houserule the use of adjustment points to increase magic, and the result on power points? I would propose a cap on the use of adjustment points for this---perhaps only a 1x increase to a cap of 6--i.e. magic of 3 from priority table could be raised up to 6 with the expenditure of 3 adjustment points, or a magic of 2 from the priority table could be raised up to a max of 4 with the expenditure of 2 adjustment points. Thoughts?"

Can anyone give us a hand, please?
« Last Edit: (20:45:41/09-09-19) by Moonrunner »

Kirklins

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« Reply #1 on: (20:53:42/09-09-19) »
My interpretation, based on special trumps general goes:

In general, increasing magic rating grants an equal increase in powerpoints. In the special case of character creation (through the 50 karma bonus), however, you are restricted to a number of powerpoints equal to the magic rating of the magic priority you chose.

I will point out that this lets you play games with essence (increasing magic with adjustment point or karma per page 65) then reducing magic/essence with ware while keeping your starting power points -- provided that you do not drop your final magic rating below the priority rating.

Or so I interpret it.
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Moonrunner

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« Reply #2 on: (21:05:13/09-09-19) »
My interpretation, based on special trumps general goes:

In general, increasing magic rating grants an equal increase in powerpoints. In the special case of character creation (through the 50 karma bonus), however, you are restricted to a number of powerpoints equal to the magic rating of the magic priority you chose.

I will point out that this lets you play games with essence (increasing magic with adjustment point or karma per page 65) then reducing magic/essence with ware while keeping your starting power points -- provided that you do not drop your final magic rating below the priority rating.

Or so I interpret it.

That seemed to be the view of some of the folks I talked to previously in here.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #3 on: (21:35:18/09-09-19) »
General consensus seems to be that it is either:
1) Bad design
or
2) Something that will be errata'd

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: (02:50:12/09-10-19) »
If this is just a local game for now I would go with this:

- essence loss reduces magic
- pp equal Magic
- you're taking magic D but right now a houserule to the entire priority table is too much effort to balance out
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Typhus

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« Reply #5 on: (10:05:56/09-10-19) »
Is there any reason one couldn't simply do things the same way they have always worked?  Bump magic, get the power points?  Or would it break something to do that?  Similarly, for the mage, bump the magic, get the spells? 

Moonrunner

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« Reply #6 on: (10:12:48/09-10-19) »
I think the issue is that the game seems to put a restriction limiting Adepts to only as many PPs as they get from the priority table for their Magic stat BEFORE any adjustments.  So, when purchasing adept powers they can only use that many PPs, per page 66 in the upper left of the page.

Lormyr

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« Reply #7 on: (10:15:59/09-10-19) »
Is there any reason one couldn't simply do things the same way they have always worked?  Bump magic, get the power points?  Or would it break something to do that?  Similarly, for the mage, bump the magic, get the spells?

I suspect that they wanted character's magic resources (complex forms, power points, spells) to be solely determined by priority selection in order incentivize that choice on the priority chart. The problem is that the chart is a completely lopsided and unbalanced mess in terms of how much effective karma you actually gain vs. choice placement when compared to itself.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #8 on: (10:24:05/09-10-19) »
I think the issue is that the game seems to put a restriction limiting Adepts to only as many PPs as they get from the priority table for their Magic stat BEFORE any adjustments.  So, when purchasing adept powers they can only use that many PPs, per page 66 in the upper left of the page.
For the Mages, I like the painful chargen choices. For Adepts, not so much. I do think the magic levels are a bit low per level. Considering ruling them into -/2/4/6/- Mage, -/3/6/-/- adepts/aspected, -/-/2/4/6 Mystics or something similar. Maybe -/1/3/5/-, -/2/5/-/-, -/-/1/3/5 instead.
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Typhus

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« Reply #9 on: (14:41:04/09-10-19) »
Quote
I suspect that they wanted character's magic resources (complex forms, power points, spells) to be solely determined by priority selection in order incentivize that choice on the priority chart.

I suspect you are correct.  I noticed when I built an adept before reading the limitation that I had a lot of powers, and the powers had lower costs in general.  It was like they wanted you to be able to start with the same powers you always did, even with the lower total cost.  I guess this would in theory allow you to have some growth opportunity before initiation?  Or is there even a "max of 6 without initiation" rule any more?

Quote
Considering ruling them into -/2/4/6/- Mage

2/4/6 seems nicer to me too.  Someone posted something here about how aspected magicians really don't suffer much from the lower magic ratings.  Would be nice if aspected types had a unique power of some sort other than just a 1 point higher rating.  Conjurers and Enchanters get no real boost in power from the higher ratings, where Sorcerers get extra spells. 

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #10 on: (15:18:28/09-11-19) »
I think the issue is that the game seems to put a restriction limiting Adepts to only as many PPs as they get from the priority table for their Magic stat BEFORE any adjustments.  So, when purchasing adept powers they can only use that many PPs, per page 66 in the upper left of the page.
For the Mages, I like the painful chargen choices. For Adepts, not so much. I do think the magic levels are a bit low per level. Considering ruling them into -/2/4/6/- Mage, -/3/6/-/- adepts/aspected, -/-/2/4/6 Mystics or something similar. Maybe -/1/3/5/-, -/2/5/-/-, -/-/1/3/5 instead.

I don't find the choice painful for mages, slightly annoying and unfun but not painful.  Buy the formulas at char gen learn them over the next 3 or 4 runs isn't really much in the way of pain. Just an annoying hoop to jump through.

Interesting ideas on a new priority numbers. Definitely like that for adepts.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #11 on: (06:46:50/09-12-19) »
Not to be tin foil hat....but I am going to be tin foil hat. Strong suspicions that Life Modules being in the next source book is meant to provide an alternative that doesn't suck and therefore drive people to buy the source book.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: (07:01:55/09-12-19) »
Yeah that's a tin foil hat. They're not deliberately slipping in mistakes and harsh rules just to get people to buy more books.
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