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Anticipatory Alan, the sammy who can see the future

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penllawen

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« on: (07:54:54/08-31-19) »
I had a pass at a character using/exploiting (delete as appropriate to your taste) the Anticipation mechanism: Anticipatory Alan.

If my maths is right, for Alan, the first round of any combat looks like:

  • Act somewhere between 17 and 37
  • Spend 4 Edge for anticipation
  • Use 1 Major / 1 Minor for Multiple Attack
  • Dual wielding BF SMGs, attack 4x targets with 1x SA shot each. 20 dice per attack; DV 6P; short range: AR 14, medium range: AR 11
  • Still have 1 Major for second attack (one target, BF). 20 dice to attack, DV 8P, short range: AR 12, medium range: AR 9

That's an even 100 dice hitting the table during Alan's first turn.

Kudos to Lormyr for posting Collateral's char sheet; I borrowed numerous ideas from there.

Edit - kudos also to Jimmy_Pvish who inspired me to do this with this post:
I'm surprise that no-one in your group choose to go "Anticipation of Doom" build.
When I read that option, I convince myself that this is THE option for non-mage combat build.

Edit - I also made a decker using some of the same techniques, which was pretty fun.
« Last Edit: (16:03:45/09-01-19) by penllawen »

penllawen

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« Reply #1 on: (08:28:46/08-31-19) »
Anticipatory Alan vs 5x DocWagon HTR Officers (professional rating 6). All dice rolls replaced by buying hits.

Alan rolls init: average of 27
DocWagon HTR rolls init: average of 20 (round up)

Alan goes first.

1 attack against 1 DocWagon HTR:
* AR (assuming Short range): 14, Defence Rating = 14; no Edge
* Attack test: 20 dice = 5 hits
* Defence test: 11 dice = 3 hits
* Net damage = 8P
* Soaking 8P DV w/ 4 dice = 7P damage (out of 10 boxes)
Repeat this 4x times.

1 final BF attack against last HTR:
* AR (assuming Short range): 12, Defence Rating = 14; no Edge
* Attack test: 20 dice = 5 hits
* Defence test: 11 dice = 3 hits
* Net damage = 10P
* Soaking 10P DV w/ 4 dice = 9P damage

Each opponent has now taken more net hits than their Professional rating, so HTRs each have to roll Composure test; 8 dice is 2 net hits. Unclear if that means if they bolt or not, no threshold is given for the test. Any that stay and fight are on -2 dice to all actions.

Assume they all stay.

5x grunts fire at Alan with Ares Alpha ARs in BF mode using the grunt rules:

* AR: 10, -4 for BF, +5 for grunt = 11; Defence Rating = 12; no Edge
* Attack test: 11, +2 dice for 5 grunts, -2 dice for injury = 11 dice = 2 hits
* Defence test: 13 dice = 3 hits
* Miss

From here, Alan can easily kill at least 2 HTR officers on his next turn. If he wants to push the schedule, he can gamble on killing 3 by doing a second Multiple Attack to split his 20 dice between two targets, and he has 1 point of remaining Edge to help with that.


Hobbes

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« Reply #2 on: (08:31:22/08-31-19) »
Anticipate requires the Multiple Attacks option. 

With a Single weapon you need to use Burst Fire (BF) mode:
p. 109
"...or make a wide burst and
split your dice pool between two targets and count
each as a SA-mode shot."

SA mode is base weapon DV, BF mode only increases DV with a Narrow Burst.

If you're dual wielding, (Off Hand Attacks p. 110), you can use the Multiple Attacks option and use SS, SA or a Narrow Burst on 2 Targets, SA and BF mode would increase DV.  Or use Dual Wide Bursts on BF mode to hit 4 Targets at Base DV.

FA mode does not use the Multiple Attacks action so you shouldn't be able to use Anticipate with it.  But someone could argue Dual Wielding FA weapons would use the Multiple Attack action so you could use the Anticipate Edge Action and make a Base DV attack vs. p. 109 ".... any
valid targets in range."  or even try to argue stacking multiple attacks on the same target.  These are absolutely arguments you could make, how far you get with them is on the GM   ;D



penllawen

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« Reply #3 on: (08:38:45/08-31-19) »
Or use Dual Wide Bursts on BF mode to hit 4 Targets at Base DV.
Yes, that's what Alan does for his 4x attacks under Anticipation. Weapon base damage is 4P, plus 1P for exploding ammo, plus 1P for an effective SA attack per target, plus 2P from his net hits on the attack test.

penllawen

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« Reply #4 on: (08:47:38/08-31-19) »
SA mode is base weapon DV, BF mode only increases DV with a Narrow Burst.
No. SS mode is base weapon damage. SA mode is +1 DV, -2 AR (see page 109.) Alan's SMG's gas-vent system make that +1 DV with no change to AR.

Hobbes

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« Reply #5 on: (09:11:03/08-31-19) »
You should also tack on Call a Shot Minor Action for -4 Dice, +2 DV.

4 Base, +1 SA, +1 Explosive, +2 DV Called Shot, plus net hits for 2 Minors and a Major.  Presuming another Major action (Wired 4 or similar) Burst Fire at two Targets to finish off whoever you rolled bad on.  Good rolls should actually drop some on the opening Anticipate action, Wide Burst for whoever is left.

Should be able to drop 3 or 4 in an opening round pretty regularly if this is what you're building to. 


Hobbes

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« Reply #6 on: (09:13:53/08-31-19) »
SA mode is base weapon DV, BF mode only increases DV with a Narrow Burst.
No. SS mode is base weapon damage. SA mode is +1 DV, -2 AR (see page 109.) Alan's SMG's gas-vent system make that +1 DV with no change to AR.

Correct on the DV.  Little early for this many Acronyms. 

penllawen

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« Reply #7 on: (09:16:16/08-31-19) »
You should also tack on Call a Shot Minor Action for -4 Dice, +2 DV.
Gooooood call, except:

Quote
2 Minors and a Major.  Presuming another Major action
I know it's being debated but current RAW is "no more than 5 Minor actions", right? So Alan is 1 Minor short to pull this off.

Quote
Should be able to drop 3 or 4 in an opening round pretty regularly if this is what you're building to.
I mean, I'm just fooling around, really; a good way to explore a system is to poke its extremes, I think. I'd imagine any sensible GM presented with this would either scream NOOOO in my face or find a dozen ways to drop anvils on poor Alan's head.

penllawen

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« Reply #8 on: (09:17:31/08-31-19) »
Correct on the DV.  Little early for this many Acronyms.
No worries  ;) SA not doing the base weapon stats is a bit jarring coming from SR5, and easy to forget (I had to write it down in my crib notes or I'd have gotten it wrong somewhere I'm sure.)

Plus it's 2pm here so I got that going for me.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #9 on: (10:00:53/08-31-19) »
This is one of the reasons why I donít like the edge system. I actually donít mind you shooting to 4 or 5 people in your turn. But that should be a function of you investing in ware not having 4 edge. As while you are street sam anticipatory Alan. Street slow as a slug decker with 4 edge can do the same thing just not with the 2nd major to finish off some poor idiot.


Hobbes

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« Reply #10 on: (10:17:48/08-31-19) »
No more than 5 Minor Actions at the start of your turn.  Wired 4 (or whatever) puts you at 1 Major 6 Minor, presumably you'd be allowed to convert 4 Minor to a Major "Before" your turn, otherwise Return on Initiative investment (Minor actions anyway) would be capped at one level lower than what most of them go up to.  2 Major, 2 Minor should be able to pull it off. 

And if your GM says "No", just pull out Indirect Iggy.  Just a guy.  In normal clothes.  Totally just standing there.  With Focused Concentration 3 sustaining 2 Increase Attributes and Increased Reflexes with 3 net hits.  Toss an Amped up Blast Spell (Base Drain 4, Amp up Damage, Increase Radius by 4, total Drain 8, Base Damage to target 4 plus Net Hits).  Then do it again with your second Major Action.  And stand there and see if anyone makes the Perception Threshold 6 test to notice you cast two spells.   "Windy today ain't it fellas?"  Mage will likely take 4 ish stun damage.  Magic 6, Spellcasting (Combat) 6, so 14 Dice vs Reaction plus Willpower to everything in a 6 Meter Radius.  If the Mage is Hermetic they'll have picked up their 2 Edge for the turn with Analytical Mind.

The Mages damage potential will increase more than the Samurai once play starts.  Bond a Foci for 4 more dice with Combat Spells, potentially increase Magic to 7 down the road for another +1 DV.  The Mage and the Samurai can both pick up one more dice on the Attack with Expertise.  Also possible to pick up another Dice initially with Aptitude (Skill) Quality. 

Doing a Drekton of damage to multiple targets at the top of the round is a pretty minor investment for a mage.  To the point where it's just arguably a just side effect of normal optimization.  A Samurai has to build their entire character around it, and it's pretty much their bit. 

Edit: Oh, yeah and the Mage can just do it again next turn.  Although you'll really need a nap if you keep Amping up the damage.
« Last Edit: (10:23:21/08-31-19) by Hobbes »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #11 on: (10:38:30/08-31-19) »
Well in the case of blast as a indirect combat spell I’d say it’s instantly visible as some energy ball flew from you to blow crap up. You might not see the spell cast but you see the spell.

I assume that’s getting changed. Spell casting harder to spot then a needle in a haystack, im guessing wasn’t the plan.

Still yes 2 blasts.


As an aside. I wish they’d rewrite multiple attack to multiple action let it include things like you are out of minors but still want to move and shoot so you 1/2 you shoot pool and move.
« Last Edit: (10:53:51/08-31-19) by Shinobi Killfist »

Hobbes

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« Reply #12 on: (12:02:35/08-31-19) »
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.

If that is the case switch to Stunball or Manaball and lower the base damage but no Soak and change the opposed test to Intuition + Willpower.  The Stunball/Manaball has the added benefit of minimal collateral damage.  Any Indirect AoE spell is going to wreck stuff and make noise, folks nearby will know something just happened.  Manaball/Stunball will just drop the inconvenient fleshy bits with a minimum of fuss and bother. 

Or waive your hands in the air like you just don't care and Blast them into next week anyway because you're probably going to drop them all.  Especially if your team is well prepared and has both an Alpha Strike Samurai and a Mop up Mage.

I mean its a team game, no reason not to have two or three of these on every Shadowrun team. 

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: (12:10:52/08-31-19) »
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.

I'm pretty sure there's an unspoken assumption that obvious stuff doesn't require a perception roll.  Throwing a fireball? Everyone sees it. No test necessary.

You're using Increase Attribute to buff your Charisma while talking to that pretty young thing in the bar? He/she gets the cited perception roll to notice.

Of course, the sparse wording on the crunch leaves a lot of interpretation still.  Does the target of your seduction get a chance to perceive the sustained magic you cast before walking up, or only if you cast directly in their presence?  Personally, I'm not looking forward to this argument again for this edition...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #14 on: (12:14:49/08-31-19) »
I didn't see any reference under Direct/Indirect spells or in the Recognizing Magic section.  Totally could be intended, or be tucked away somewhere.
I'm pretty sure there's an unspoken assumption that obvious stuff doesn't require a perception roll.  Throwing a fireball? Everyone sees it. No test necessary.
I'm with you on this. Indirect magic spells are surely hella obvious.

Quote
You're using Increase Attribute to buff your Charisma while talking to that pretty young thing in the bar? He/she gets the cited perception roll to notice.
Wait, what about...

Quote
Of course, the sparse wording on the crunch leaves a lot of interpretation still.  Does the target of your seduction get a chance to perceive the sustained magic you cast before walking up, or only if you cast directly in their presence?  Personally, I'm not looking forward to this argument again for this edition...
...yes, this. What about this?

I'd silently assumed it was only the latter - the person is noticing spellcasting, the action, not noticing active magic. But I'd given it zero thought and now I am I'm not at all sure. I assume this is a well-worn topic around these parts?