[Neal Allen]

I like a lot of things about the new SR6 systems, most of which are streamlined aspects of the more complicated parts of 5th. But one thing I struggle to like are the steps to hitting someone with a weapon.  This comes from two reasons.

A. 5th was fairly simple, if including a lot of different numbers
Step 1: Attack (Att+Skill+Mod) Vs. Dodge (Rea+Int+Mod)
Step 2: DV (mod by NH) Vs. Soak (Bod+Arm+Mod)
done.

6th not only adds a step but also significantly reduces the effectiveness of armour in exchange for variable uses of edge (which don't make up for the lost armour).
 
Step 1: Attack (Att+Skill+Mod) Vs. Dodge (Rea+Int+Mod)
Step 2: Attack Rating (Weapon or Unarmed) Vs. Defense Rating (Bod+Arm+Mod) to award (temporary) Edge points
Step 3: DV (mod by NH) Vs. Bod

That's the same amount of rolls but with an extra step where you have to make a decision (how to use your edge) instead of simply memorizing your armour rating (armour jacket, let's be real = 12). 
That's not streamlining, that's prioritizing a new system and trying to shove it into an old system that was already too big.


B. I guess they intended to offset this by lowering Damage Values, but damage went down by like 2/3rds almost across the board:
- light pistol went from 6P to 2P
- heavy pistol went from 8P to 3P
- assault rifles went from 11P to 5P
- assault cannon went from 17P to 7P
Sure you can now spend (max 2) edge on your soak but that's only good for (max) changing 4-5. 1 hit. yay.

Which meant that tanks (orks and trolls) went from having a natural 2-4 less damage to 1.  And tanks? Remember that 35 - 45 DP armour rating you worked hours to achieve? Now can only be used to (sometimes) get 1 extra hit.

I don't see how this could benefit gameplay.
I like how edge is being used more variably and in more context instead of just: reroll or add your total (plus X6s and no limit), esp since edge is a unique concept to shadowrun. 

But I don't like that in trying to simply basic combat, they shifted the responsability of choice and memorization onto the player and fucked an ancient archetype many enjoy playing.

[Michael Chandra]

You say it's an extra step, but in SR5 we had:

- Step 2 also includes Armor Piercing, which depends on both the weapon and the ammo
- You also had to compare DV to Armor after AP to determine Physical vs Stun
- You also checked light, range, wind conditions, other dicepool modifiers, etc, etc, which you had to combine to calculate the final dicepool modifier

In SR6, it's the AR vs DR, which are almost always constants that don't vary between turns (except for Cover), and a single glance at circumstances to determine a second point of Edge. So I disagree with your assertation that combat now has MORE steps.

[Neal Allen]

You're right, I did forget those, my apologies. 
As a DM I had taken liberties to simplify 5th including ignoring the changing of Physical to Stun with armour and the summing up of all modifiers into: take a -X, based on the mood of the context. 

I guess a development of my point is that the edge system, which was already unique and is now prioritized, now has a number of options that require memorization not only for the options of how to use but for additional actions once you decide how to use it. 
5th had systems which you had to run through to get to the final (lots o' modifiers) but a lot of them were on the DM.  Now the responsibility has been shifted to the player with a development of edge and in my experience, trying to get 3-6 players to commit is a lot harder than putting in the effort to accumulate visual, wind, and other modifiers into a (just take -2 to your attack). 

P.S. underline and bold for emphasis, not emotion

[Michael Chandra]

SR5 had 2 different ways to Edge your initiative, required math to decide on edging in advance or on the reroll, which got worse with limits involved, I bet you half the players forgot they even had some of those options or didn't know the math to decide which was better.

In my experience, from both me and my brother running open events, players need exactly 2 rounds to get used to the Edge system and memorise their edge gain methods and pick a prefered method. And the GM still is responsible for judging the situational modifiers. So it doesn't sound as bad to me.

[Neal Allen]

Sure, but if you had less than 4 edge you mechanically only had 1 option and it was simple. 

Just because your players only used one option doesn't mean they didn't have a lot of other mechanical options (initiative, negate your enemy's edge, new actions, healing, etc).

It doesn't sound like your players enjoyed the development of the new system and the options it provided, but ignored it in favour of simplicity.

Which is my point.

[Gamerdad46]

So I probably don't have a right to chime in here. I've started to read through the book and based on reading feel like I have at least a general idea on how this works. Also though, I don't have as much baggage about the earlier editions as most. I bought 1st edition when it was initially released but only ran the game a couple of times. I've read through 4th edition and have run it about a half dozen times. For the groups I was running with, the game was just much too crunchy for them (and me at times)

So I know my opinion is likely worth very little on these boards because the crunch is what everyone seems to really love. From what I can see though Edge allows for a more player applied approach to modifiers, it allows them to contribute to the flow of situations a bit more directly. Yes, calculating modifiers allows for a more "realistic" approach but I've never been a fan of trying to duplicate reality with my gaming systems. This system seems to support a playstyle I (and my group) prefer and I'm looking forward to seeing how this game moves in practice.

Again, I know I don't speak for the core audience. I can only ever speak for myself, and for myself this is the first edition of Shadowrun that feels like it will get continued play at the table. That is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

[Neal Allen]

@Gamerdad46

You have as much right here as anyone else.  And as much as I value the identity that Shadowrun has created for itself and for what I come to appreciate it for, the point you bring up is not only valid but also, from the right perspective, incredibly valuable. 

Perhaps I'm salty because I (as the DM and rarely the player) aren't able to appreciate the changes Catalyst has made.  Perhaps I'm salty because I don't like change. 
But I appreciate you sharing your view.
Thank you.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I don’t think the system was streamlined at least. Not sure it’s really another step though. Seems like a wash on complexity. Edge for the loss of some dice pool modifiers.

It’s a mixed bag for me. I like only one pass. Not implemented perfectly but I think it’s a good idea. I don’t like removing free actions it just whistles down a persons turn into activity taxes making people less interesting and dynamic.

 I like the new edge system at its core but I think the edge actions should have been expressed as additional minor actions being spent instead.

The new decking is the best it’s been mechanically though 1-2e had the thematic aspects best even if the mechanics were the worst.

The magic section um I like the removal of force from spells. Almost everything else in the magic section is worse than 5e for me. Some of it is literally non functional like rituals and alchemy. You’d need a 36 die pool to make a rating 6 ward without edge. Not a rating 12 ward but a rating 6 ward. Some of it is just  decisions I don’t like, like the fling spell, getting rid of sustaining on some manipulation spells, keeping force on spirits, summoning multiple spirits without binding. Others are missed opportunities. Like object resistance. They needed to expand direct and indirect spells out of combat spells to all spells in order to explain why some spells go against object resistance and others don’t. And for gods sake change it back to a threshold. We don’t need another die roll for the door.

Combat I like the reduced damage of weapons. I don’t like all the system mastery ways to get it back to instant death. Cancel called shot, you are always trying to hit a vulnerable spot. That’s called net hits. Or if you have it in it’s for special effects not extra damage. Burst fire, also get rid of its damage boost. But make net hits increase damage faster so a good shot it what gets you the kill not system mastery. And armor should add to soak it’s only 1-4 points that won’t even effect the math noticeably.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So I probably don't have a right to chime in here. I've started to read through the book and based on reading feel like I have at least a general idea on how this works. Also though, I don't have as much baggage about the earlier editions as most. I bought 1st edition when it was initially released but only ran the game a couple of times. I've read through 4th edition and have run it about a half dozen times. For the groups I was running with, the game was just much too crunchy for them (and me at times)

So I know my opinion is likely worth very little on these boards because the crunch is what everyone seems to really love. From what I can see though Edge allows for a more player applied approach to modifiers, it allows them to contribute to the flow of situations a bit more directly. Yes, calculating modifiers allows for a more "realistic" approach but I've never been a fan of trying to duplicate reality with my gaming systems. This system seems to support a playstyle I (and my group) prefer and I'm looking forward to seeing how this game moves in practice.

Again, I know I don't speak for the core audience. I can only ever speak for myself, and for myself this is the first edition of Shadowrun that feels like it will get continued play at the table. That is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't give the complainers more credence than they deserve.

We're at a point that very much reminds me of when 4th edition came out.  I was one of the complainers, decrying the loss of crunch.  "No skill web!?! Every TN is always 5 now?!? THIS ISN'T EVEN SHADOWRUN ANYMORE!!!"

No exaggeration there.. I quit SR for an entire edition over the "travesty" of 4th.

6th world edition wasn't made to please the old guard.  It's a big shift from 5e, perhaps moreso than 4e was from 1/2/3e.  It's for people like you.  Not for the old guard.  They (who am I kidding... WE) can embrace it or take our dice and go home. Older editions still exist, and eventually there'll be a 7th edition.  In the meantime, lots of people will play and enjoy 6we.  Having become quite familiar with this edition via several roles, I'm comfortable predicting that there will be even more people playing 6we than there were 5e.

Gamerdad46 you ARE part of the new core playerbase.

[Gamerdad46]

The reality is, I'm no one yet. Hell I haven't even completed reading through the book yet, just working my way through it. What I can see thus far makes me think (and I stress think) that this game will work with my players and is a system I could likely run well in. I've been running games for 30 years now and I believe I could potentially run this well.

That being said, until dice start hitting the table and my players and I are taking it through it's paces I won't commit to anything. What I will say is after 30 years of gaming I'm just tired of really crunchy systems. I don't like Fate style openness either. I need something functional but not overwhelming. Something that gives some choices to my players, but doesn't require a massive amount of up front time to learn and use.

I like when a system revolves around a core concept and flows from there. If you figure out the core the rest of it just grows from that knowledge. I love this setting and this world. My gaming tastes have changed over the years. When I was younger the more complex a system was the more I was into it. Now I strike out for more of a middle ground. I bought Anarchy because I thought that was going to give me a chance to run Shadowrun regularly but in the end it was just too simplified. I just didn't like it.

I've seen the folks out here with their complaints about 6th. I get it. Every version of any game has the folks that love it and those that love earlier versions of it. My initial impressions are that this system might work for me and my group, and I find myself happy about that. It is just speculation at the moment though. I can read through this book dozens of times but until I am sitting around a table I won't get the true sense of it.

I'm just hopeful. I am sorry for those folks who feel like it doesn't do it for them.

[Michael Chandra]

I hope you and your fellow players will love it.

[Marcus]

SR5 had 2 different ways to Edge your initiative, required math to decide on edging in advance or on the reroll, which got worse with limits involved, I bet you half the players forgot they even had some of those options or didn't know the math to decide which was better.

What did you already forget that there was no Limit on attribute only pools in 5e? So limit was never involved in initiative at all in 5e. So what exactly were you trying to say there Chandra?

In my experience, from both me and my brother running open events, players need exactly 2 rounds to get used to the Edge system and memorise their edge gain methods and pick a prefered method. And the GM still is responsible for judging the situational modifiers. So it doesn't sound as bad to me.

Well I sure hope they weren't planning on that method being DR advantage. Poor Tanks.

Gamerdad46 you ARE part of the new core playerbase.

You're a big part of the new player base GD! Best of luck to you!

Don't worry about the rest, there are several great editions of SR, we'll get by.