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6WE Strength useless for melee users?

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Hephaestus

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« Reply #30 on: (13:42:08/08-27-19) »
I know people are arguing over the effectiveness of strength builds versus melee weapons, but has anyone looked at the strength limits in general? CRB6 RAW states you do not need to make a strength test up to 10*Body^2 kg, so an augmented Troll would be able to lift a 13*13*10 = 1690 kg (3718 lb) object without needing a strength test. To put things in perspective, an average mid-sized car weighs around 1590 kg (3718 lb), and a 20-foot steel construction girder (18" x 40" I-beam) weighs a measly 364 kg.

So why, I ask, would a STR 13 Troll bother with a weapon, when they could pick up a car or a construction girder, and swing it (AGI+Close Combat) or throw it (AGI+Athletics) at an enemy? Even if you impose a dice pool penalty for an improvised weapon, the mass alone should do roughly the same damage as a grenade.

Banshee

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« Reply #31 on: (13:58:47/08-27-19) »
I know people are arguing over the effectiveness of strength builds versus melee weapons, but has anyone looked at the strength limits in general? CRB6 RAW states you do not need to make a strength test up to 10*Body^2 kg, so an augmented Troll would be able to lift a 13*13*10 = 1690 kg (3718 lb) object without needing a strength test. To put things in perspective, an average mid-sized car weighs around 1590 kg (3718 lb), and a 20-foot steel construction girder (18" x 40" I-beam) weighs a measly 364 kg.

So why, I ask, would a STR 13 Troll bother with a weapon, when they could pick up a car or a construction girder, and swing it (AGI+Close Combat) or throw it (AGI+Athletics) at an enemy? Even if you impose a dice pool penalty for an improvised weapon, the mass alone should do roughly the same damage as a grenade.

Quote
Characters can lift [(Strength x Strength) x 10] kilograms naturally; if they need to raise the weight over their head, the multiplier drops to 5. Making a Lift/Carry test increases your effective Strength by 1 per net hit.  It also does 1 Stun damage, resisted by Body. The damage increase by +1 each combat round you continue holding or carrying the weight.

so lifting is strength2 not body ... but the lift/carry check is body + willpower
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Serbitar

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« Reply #32 on: (14:11:09/08-27-19) »
I know people are arguing over the effectiveness of strength builds versus melee weapons, but has anyone looked at the strength limits in general? CRB6 RAW states you do not need to make a strength test up to 10*Body^2 kg, so an augmented Troll would be able to lift a 13*13*10 = 1690 kg (3718 lb) object without needing a strength test. To put things in perspective, an average mid-sized car weighs around 1590 kg (3718 lb), and a 20-foot steel construction girder (18" x 40" I-beam) weighs a measly 364 kg.

So why, I ask, would a STR 13 Troll bother with a weapon, when they could pick up a car or a construction girder, and swing it (AGI+Close Combat) or throw it (AGI+Athletics) at an enemy? Even if you impose a dice pool penalty for an improvised weapon, the mass alone should do roughly the same damage as a grenade.

Typical example of rules not being consistent with each other. Letting strength scale by a power law but damage linearly is a problem. However this is a problem in many RPGs, as most of them scale linear, as people tend to think linear.

And frankly, most designers are not math savvy enough to design something different.

Using a log scale is eliminating a lot of those problems, also the goblin vs goblin and dragon vs dragon problem.

On a linear scale goblin str 1 and goblin str 2 have good chance for both to succeed while dragon strength 100 has absolutely no chance to win against dragon 200 strength in a linear system. Although in both cases the strength difference is a factor 2
« Last Edit: (14:16:24/08-27-19) by Serbitar »

penllawen

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« Reply #33 on: (14:14:52/08-27-19) »
So why, I ask, would a STR 13 Troll bother with a weapon, when they could pick up a car or a construction girder, and swing it (AGI+Close Combat) or throw it (AGI+Athletics) at an enemy? Even if you impose a dice pool penalty for an improvised weapon, the mass alone should do roughly the same damage as a grenade.
So
(1) be a troll
(2) be above your opponent
(3) have something heavy and big to hand

...and you can just drop 1.5 ton objects on people's heads. I like it. I guess we don't ever let the troll get the higher ground (Anakin)!

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #34 on: (15:12:45/08-27-19) »
So why, I ask, would a STR 13 Troll bother with a weapon, when they could pick up a car or a construction girder, and swing it (AGI+Close Combat) or throw it (AGI+Athletics) at an enemy? Even if you impose a dice pool penalty for an improvised weapon, the mass alone should do roughly the same damage as a grenade.
Superior application of their force, same as anyone using melee weapons. Granted, a troll's weapon would need to be well-engineered and therefore costly, but it would totally be worth being able to slaughter elephants in a kosher manner, granting a monopoly on the local kosher elephant meat market.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #35 on: (15:14:56/08-27-19) »
Point of clarification: that rule is not new to 6we.  It was in 5e, too.  not that anyone ever bothered to use it, most likely...

I somehow missed it entirely in 5e.

Hobbes

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« Reply #36 on: (15:29:11/08-27-19) »
Point of clarification: that rule is not new to 6we.  It was in 5e, too.  not that anyone ever bothered to use it, most likely...

I somehow missed it entirely in 5e.

Because Sniper Rifles were better, in expert hands anyway.  Nobody used Machine Guns except as Drone or Vehicle weapons. 

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #37 on: (15:33:03/08-27-19) »
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the decline of rifles as a close combat weapon option.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

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« Reply #38 on: (15:34:44/08-27-19) »
Point of clarification: that rule is not new to 6we.  It was in 5e, too.  not that anyone ever bothered to use it, most likely...

I somehow missed it entirely in 5e.

Because Sniper Rifles were better, in expert hands anyway.  Nobody used Machine Guns except as Drone or Vehicle weapons.

oh, I don't know about that, I had a troll that had a customized Stoner-Ares that used it like it was a SMG
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #39 on: (16:05:38/08-27-19) »
I know people are arguing over the effectiveness of strength builds versus melee weapons, but has anyone looked at the strength limits in general? CRB6 RAW states you do not need to make a strength test up to 10*Body^2 kg, so an augmented Troll would be able to lift a 13*13*10 = 1690 kg (3718 lb) object without needing a strength test. To put things in perspective, an average mid-sized car weighs around 1590 kg (3718 lb), and a 20-foot steel construction girder (18" x 40" I-beam) weighs a measly 364 kg.

So why, I ask, would a STR 13 Troll bother with a weapon, when they could pick up a car or a construction girder, and swing it (AGI+Close Combat) or throw it (AGI+Athletics) at an enemy? Even if you impose a dice pool penalty for an improvised weapon, the mass alone should do roughly the same damage as a grenade.
Yeah. I talked about it in the troll size thread. I thought cars weighed more than that when I posted but that was probably a kg to lb conversion error on my part. But yeah a troll might be able to pick up a compact car over his head and drop
It on you. I wouldnít have the foggiest idea how to adjudicate that. Levitate got weak in comparison. 50kg a hit now with a framing bizarre stipulation that you have to keep them in sight to maintain concentration on the spell. Thatís not how sustaining spells works dammit. Unneeded change on that end but I like the new strength lift rules.

FrowningMirror

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« Reply #40 on: (16:17:54/08-27-19) »
To be honest I don't completely mind strength being removed from melee weapon combat. A big problem of (at least 4th and 5th) was that strength was a secondary stat unless you had a very large pool of like 25+ dice (which is likely going to kill most everything anyway). This is due to agi being both hit % which directly translates to 1:1 damage for extra dice after a confirmed hit, while strength is immediately 1:2 on the weapon DV without being tied to hit % at all.

For unarmed, Strength is easier to raise now that it is 1:1 worth its points and has been granted attack rating now to balance agility having hit %. Perfection.

But as soon as you pick up a weapon its a mess.

First off, an elf with 2 strength is more threatening than than a troll with 13, both using heavy blunt warhammer clubs. This is strange aesthetically, but I'm sure some minimal strength rule will be added in a later combat book to address this.

The second problem is fighting unarmed folk. You might end up with 4-5 strength to your weapon build to counter the very specific scenario of people dropping their weapons to disarm you. I'm getting vibes that this is how the developers want it to look like. However, how many people will you run into that prefer unarmed combat over the sword, magic, and gun folk?

The last problem is the only way to make weapons have a high damage threshold is agility, magic and the weapon itself. Agility is always maxed out for every combat build, so nothing new there. Magic is expensive to raise DV and dice now and can be done with unarmed builds anyways. Weapon foci can get you 3 or so dice but it still lags behind unarmed strength build. This leaves your weapon itself; big or obvious weapons might be confiscated limiting your damage output, there is nothing that puts you at higher than 5 DV combat axe right now.
« Last Edit: (16:27:07/08-27-19) by FrowningMirror »

GuardDuty

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« Reply #41 on: (16:21:47/08-27-19) »
I think it's important to note that unless the rules state specifically that "lift" means "lift over head", the strongest people in the world only overhead press half their deadlift.  Maximum lift, I would assume without more information, would mean off the floor to an erect stature, arms fully extended down, holding an object with adequate places to fully wrap your fingers around.  Change the way you grip it, arm placement, etc, and your lifting capacity can go waaaay down, and likelihood to injure yourself can go up drastically.

Also, if you've ever seen a video of someone pulling their absolute max, you know there's no way they are using that as a weapon.  Even taking a step or two would probably rip their hamstrings, wreck their back, or tear their biceps off.

Hobbes

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« Reply #42 on: (16:34:42/08-27-19) »
Point of clarification: that rule is not new to 6we.  It was in 5e, too.  not that anyone ever bothered to use it, most likely...

I somehow missed it entirely in 5e.

Because Sniper Rifles were better, in expert hands anyway.  Nobody used Machine Guns except as Drone or Vehicle weapons.

oh, I don't know about that, I had a troll that had a customized Stoner-Ares that used it like it was a SMG

Like I said, Vehicle mounted   :D

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #43 on: (16:40:13/08-27-19) »
I think it's important to note that unless the rules state specifically that "lift" means "lift over head", the strongest people in the world only overhead press half their deadlift.  Maximum lift, I would assume without more information, would mean off the floor to an erect stature, arms fully extended down, holding an object with adequate places to fully wrap your fingers around.  Change the way you grip it, arm placement, etc, and your lifting capacity can go waaaay down, and likelihood to injure yourself can go up drastically.

Also, if you've ever seen a video of someone pulling their absolute max, you know there's no way they are using that as a weapon.  Even taking a step or two would probably rip their hamstrings, wreck their back, or tear their biceps off.

Yeah itís one ton above your head 2 ton dead lift. 3 hits on a lift test would get you to average compact car over your head at strength 13, you take exceptional attribute strength as well and only 2 hits on the lift test.

GuardDuty

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« Reply #44 on: (17:02:08/08-27-19) »

Yeah itís one ton above your head 2 ton dead lift. 3 hits on a lift test would get you to average compact car over your head at strength 13, you take exceptional attribute strength as well and only 2 hits on the lift test.

Personally, I am ok with a maximum strength character being able to lift a compact car overhead, as long as they walk through the steps it would take to get there.  Can't just grab it by the bumper and lift, because the leverage would rip the bumper off.  You'd probably have to lift one end up and climb under it first.  Any damage you take while holding it aloft would risk it dropping on your head too.  If you can't manage it all in one turn, well then anyone that gets hit by it kind of deserves to.