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6WE Strength useless for melee users?

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penllawen

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« Reply #120 on: (14:04:21/09-11-19) »
Oh, yeah, statuses/conditions are good too. I forgot those.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #121 on: (15:12:23/09-11-19) »
I'm not a huge fan of the armor system for statuses effects. Ablative isn't fun to track IMO.

Typhus

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« Reply #122 on: (15:53:49/09-11-19) »
If I was designing, I would reserve it for explosive effects, which are relatively rare.  So get caught in a blast radius of a frag grenade: -2 Armor from being shredded.  Applies Fragged effect to character.  Explosive grenade: -1 from burns, rips, concussion, etc., applies Concussed effect to character.
Stuff like that. 

Then you don't need the damage to take the character out of the fight to simulate the bad news of a grenade.  No more 30 nuyen auto-kills.  You won't be having any fun after getting hit, and you won't want to get hit again, but you can take at least one as your cue to rethink your life choices.  Same for panther cannon rounds. 

darthor45

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« Reply #123 on: (18:36:38/09-13-19) »
So, my two cents as someone new to the forums (but not the game), if I were to re-write the unarmed rules, I'd do something like this:

1. Give Unarmed Attacks a baseline damage rating.
Probably 2S, putting it on par with a Sap (which you can still use to take advantage of a Clubs specialty), a Knife (which makes the damage Physical and lets you use Blades and can still be thrown) and the Bike Chain (which still gives you a free Trip action).  So these weapons aren't invalidated and have uses, but unarmed is competitive.  Let Dermal Deposits still give a +1 to unarmed damage (free Knucks!) and Bone Lacing/Bone Density still gives its listed bonuses.  A troll with Titanium Bone Lacing would be hitting as hard as a Combat Axe... and I'm okay with this.  Similarly, putting Hardliner Gloves on a troll isn't going to make him hit any harder, just let him hit more lethally... and they won't be of any use to someone with Bone Lacing... but I'm okay with that too.

2. Make Strength the Default Close Combat Attribute.
This means that while the damage is baseline for unarmed combat, it will let your Strength be the determining factor in how hard you actually hit someone and damage them since it flows into the Base Damage + net hits system that every other combat method uses.  So stronger characters will have a better chance of getting net hits.  Special actions like Wrest and initiating a Grapple can still use Agility + Close Combat because, honestly, those actions still make sense as being about coordination and agility since you're not trying to hurt someone, just get a grip on them (and no matter how good a grip you get, prying a weapon out of the hands of the high Strength troll or actually restraining the high Strength ork is going to be pretty hard since those are contested by Strength).

3. Do away with Close Range Attack Values for most weapons.
Melee weapons with a Near Attack Value (Knives and Combat Knives for instance) would still have their listed vlaue.  And some exotic weapons like Bullwhips and Monofilament Whips can (and should) break this rule with their own attack ratings due to the nature of their use.  But what do you replace those Attack Values with?

4. Have the Strength + Reaction calculation for Attack Value apply to weapons classified as Unarmed.
So giving Unarmed Combat a baseline damage solves the problem that putting on a pair of Hardliner Gloves makes a high-Strength character do less damage.  This change makes it so that those same Hardliners don't make you somehow less threatening.  Knucks, Shock Gloves, Bike Chains and cyberlimbs with the Hardening or Shock Limb accessories are using the same Strength + Reaction calculation to maintain the same level of threat, with the weapon you're using determining the base damage.

5. Use Agility + Reaction for Close Range Attack Value of other melee weapons.
This is where the elf with a katana is going to excel.  You don't want to neglect Strength all together (anymore than a character who plans to use guns should completely neglect Agility), but the Agility based character is going to have an advantage in generating Edge to reroll dice, bump up their rolled numbers, use Edge Actions like Shank and Knockout Blow and add their Edge to their attack pool to compensate for a lower Strength for some potentially devastating hits.  A Strength based character can compensate with an average Agility (something the pure Unarmed character wouldn't necessarily need) and a strong Reaction (something a good combat character of any sort should probably have for Initiative purposes anyway).  But the Agility character is going to be more likely to gain an advantage and parlay that into results when using a weapon.

6. Exotic Weapons can break these rules.
Monofilament Whip is a great example of that already.  It should absolutely have an Attack Value of its own due to its nature.  And it's a weapon that should probably use Agility + Exotic Weapons to attack rather than Strength, which can easily just be specified in the description of the weapon.  Bullwhip is similar and should probably be Agility + Exotic Weapons and keep its default Attack Rating and let you get free Trips.  Exotic Weapons would just need to have these spelled out in their write-ups... but they're Exotic and special already, right?

EDIT:
Slight addendum I thought of after writing this up yesterday.  I realized that replacing the listed Attack Ratings of melee weapons with a calculated Attack Rating like unarmed has makes a Combat Knife and a Sword effectively the same (except the combat knife can be thrown).  I'd also dial the Combat Knife to 2P and the standard Knife down to 1P.  The 1P Knife is still useful because using it takes you from a 2S unarmed attack to a 1P armed attack so you're doing actual Physical damage, plus you can use a Blades specialty and throw the weapon in a pinch, while the Combat Knife is getting everything I said about the regular Knife above.

All the other weapons currently listed work just fine as is because even when the damage is the same, there's value to the weapon as it stands.  Katanas and Polearms have the same damage potential, but there's a big difference between wielding a katana and a polearm.  And when you get to Clubs, a Staff and Telescoping Staff have the same damage value, but... they're the same weapon, so okay.  (As an aside, I do question the COST of a Blackjack, but even in the RAW, I question 75 nuyen for a bag of sand.)
« Last Edit: (10:36:52/09-14-19) by darthor45 »

Tecumseh

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« Reply #124 on: (19:56:49/09-13-19) »
dartho45, welcome to the forums and thanks for writing up your thoughts.

I still like Finstersang's house rules (earlier in the thread on page 5) but the idea of tying an attack roll to Strength rather than Agility is an interesting one.

For the sake of discussion, let's take this another step: what would you do for thrown weapons? Obviously they are highly dependent on coordination and accuracy, which would suggest Agility, but doing so ignores the additional Strength that our larger metahuman brothers and sisters bring to the table. Would you leave the current (flat) damage values in place or would you attempt to adjust them somehow?

darthor45

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« Reply #125 on: (20:19:19/09-13-19) »
dartho45, welcome to the forums and thanks for writing up your thoughts.

I still like Finstersang's house rules (earlier in the thread on page 5) but the idea of tying an attack roll to Strength rather than Agility is an interesting one.

For the sake of discussion, let's take this another step: what would you do for thrown weapons? Obviously they are highly dependent on coordination and accuracy, which would suggest Agility, but doing so ignores the additional Strength that our larger metahuman brothers and sisters bring to the table. Would you leave the current (flat) damage values in place or would you attempt to adjust them somehow?

Thanks for the welcome!  :)

As for Projectile Weapons... bit of a mixed bag.  Off the top of my head, I'd retain flat Damage and Attack for projectiles.  Bows and Crossbows I'd say use Agility + Athletics to hit the target (and Bows already have Strength factored into their use requirement in terms of "but you need to be strong to pull back the string" arguments).  Knives and Shurikens, I could see the argument for using Strength + Athletics to hit the target to determine that extra damage.

Since we really only have two examples of Projectile Weapons in the book right now (Bows and Sharp Thrown Things, basically), at this point in the edition, I'm okay handling this on a case-by-case basis based on the design of the weapon.  That may change if a more efficient solution comes along.

EDIT:
After considering this, I'm actually more comfortable with Strength + Athletics for throwing weapons.  I was concerned that this might neglect the argument for a lack of accuracy not being factored in, but you're using Athletics for the throw in the first place and the in-game lore behind Skills is that these represent your training in this particular area.  Even an Athletics 1, a Novice, means you've at least put in some practice with it.  So the Athletics portion of the attack is reflecting your skill at putting the knife where you're aiming, while Strength is the actual force of the throw.

So yeah, I'd be comfortable with Strength + Athletics for thrown weapons.
« Last Edit: (20:36:05/09-13-19) by darthor45 »

Hephaestus

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« Reply #126 on: (20:35:23/09-13-19) »
Personally, I would use AGI+Athletics for the attack rolls, and take STR above DV to add to range.

Some of the ranges on thrown weapons are just impossible (who is throwing a knife out to 250 meters?). Amending the medium range to cap at 50m+10m/point of STR over the rating of the bow would mean higher STR characters can choose between more damage or more range when they buy a bow.

darthor45

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« Reply #127 on: (20:48:16/09-13-19) »
Personally, I would use AGI+Athletics for the attack rolls, and take STR above DV to add to range.

Some of the ranges on thrown weapons are just impossible (who is throwing a knife out to 250 meters?). Amending the medium range to cap at 50m+10m/point of STR over the rating of the bow would mean higher STR characters can choose between more damage or more range when they buy a bow.

Speaking personally, I'm hesitant about the option of factoring Strength into things on the fly.  Especially when one of the stated goals of 6e is making it more math-light (ymmv on whether that's successful, or a good thing, but I'm going into this with that mentality in mind).

Additionally, I'm personally okay with some of the crazier ranges of thrown weapons.  The Attack Rating drops considerably between Near and Medium range, making them less dangerous and potentially giving a decently armored opponent that Edge they needed to turn your 2's against you because you decided to throw at that range.  And to me, it harkens to character concepts like ninja assassins throwing blades out of the shadows from nowhere and cutting down their enemies.  I'm okay with a little suspension of disbelief for the rule of cool.
« Last Edit: (20:50:14/09-13-19) by darthor45 »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #128 on: (21:44:07/09-13-19) »
Personally, I would use AGI+Athletics for the attack rolls, and take STR above DV to add to range.

Some of the ranges on thrown weapons are just impossible (who is throwing a knife out to 250 meters?). Amending the medium range to cap at 50m+10m/point of STR over the rating of the bow would mean higher STR characters can choose between more damage or more range when they buy a bow.

Almost all the ranges are hinky since they unified the charts.  50 meters with a pistol isn't a easy shot. Its about ease though.  Still yeah outside of max strength trolls no one is throwing a knife 250 meters.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #129 on: (02:31:44/09-14-19) »
If you're throwing vases and chairs we're definitely using Strength. O.o
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darthor45

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« Reply #130 on: (10:38:44/09-14-19) »
An edit I added to my first post above:

EDIT:
Slight addendum I thought of after writing this up yesterday.  I realized that replacing the listed Attack Ratings of melee weapons with a calculated Attack Rating like unarmed has makes a Combat Knife and a Sword effectively the same (except the combat knife can be thrown).  I'd also dial the Combat Knife to 2P and the standard Knife down to 1P.  The 1P Knife is still useful because using it takes you from a 2S unarmed attack to a 1P armed attack so you're doing actual Physical damage, plus you can use a Blades specialty and throw the weapon in a pinch, while the Combat Knife is getting everything I said about the regular Knife above.

All the other weapons currently listed work just fine as is because even when the damage is the same, there's value to the weapon as it stands.  Katanas and Polearms have the same damage potential, but there's a big difference between wielding a katana and a polearm.  And when you get to Clubs, a Staff and Telescoping Staff have the same damage value, but... they're the same weapon, so okay.  (As an aside, I do question the COST of a Blackjack, but even in the RAW, I question 75 nuyen for a bag of sand.)

BeCareful

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« Reply #131 on: (19:09:55/09-14-19) »
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But yeah, I do like how all these ideas are going, and hope that maybe some of them get put in the Extra Combat book.
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Shadowhack

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« Reply #132 on: (23:56:20/09-14-19) »
Hi, I've been reading the sixth edition and it seems to me having strength is a liability now for close combat unless you are unarmed.

As far as I can tell, DV is no longer strength/2 (round up) + the weapon DV, it's simply the weapon DV

In close, you get a strength + reaction attack rating, however, this disappears when equipping a combat axe which has a static number

Unarmed combat is also the only time you can use grappling (fair enough)

Is there any incentive to have strength on a weapon in 6th edition?

The only reason I can think of for them to change the rule would be to prevent my troll street samurai, Biggie Blast, with strength 8 from causing twice as much DR by hitting someone over the head with a club as he would from shooting someone with his Ares Predator 6 on an average roll. On the other hand he can do DR5 physical damage with his fist (dermal armor) so they really aren't nerfing strength to much.