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6WE Strength useless for melee users?

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FrowningMirror

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« on: (02:36:44/08-27-19) »
Hi, I've been reading the sixth edition and it seems to me having strength is a liability now for close combat unless you are unarmed.

As far as I can tell, DV is no longer strength/2 (round up) + the weapon DV, it's simply the weapon DV

In close, you get a strength + reaction attack rating, however, this disappears when equipping a combat axe which has a static number

Unarmed combat is also the only time you can use grappling (fair enough)

Is there any incentive to have strength on a weapon in 6th edition?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: (02:43:59/08-27-19) »
Yep... your strength sets the threshold for someone to take your weapon away from you. (See Wrest edge action).

Mind you, this is an unopposed roll...  so if you go into combat with a weapon with low strength, you'll be fighting unarmed before long :D
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: (02:51:07/08-27-19) »
Well, unless you want to be instantly disarmed, or your opponent to grapple you... You also use it against Binding and Engulf.
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penllawen

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« Reply #3 on: (03:48:29/08-27-19) »
Mind you, this is an unopposed roll...  so if you go into combat with a weapon with low strength, you'll be fighting unarmed before long :D
I don't follow this reasoning. The opponent rolls their Strength with a threshold equal to your Strength, correct? Isn't mathematically the same thing as an opposed Strength roll, but where the defender rolls 100% hits? Seems like it being unopposed favours the defender here.

Also, isn't this quite a big move? Someone told me the attacker first has to win a melee attack, then choose to do no damage, then spend Edge, then roll again to attempt the disarm. I'm not saying that's impossible but those are a number of non-trivial steps to pull this off.

penllawen

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« Reply #4 on: (03:53:21/08-27-19) »
As far as I can tell, DV is no longer strength/2 (round up) + the weapon DV, it's simply the weapon DV

In close, you get a strength + reaction attack rating, however, this disappears when equipping a combat axe
I must admit, I don't understand why Strength doesn't at least play a part in the Attack Rating computation for melee weapons.

Weapon DVs being static rather than deriving from Strength I could maybe understand, and has been pointed out to me, it can have some nice effects (ie. they make backup melee weapons a viable choice for non-auged Strength monsters.) And I don't find it too jarring for edged weapons. But the idea of clubs doing the same damage regardless of Strength is something I can't get past.

I also don't like how a lot of Strength-build characters are going to do considerably more damage unarmed than armed. 5e had a version of this, with the unarmed combat skill using the Physical limit, which could be sky-high for combat characters. I didn't like it in 5e and I don't like it in 6e.

Another houserule idea floating around that I liked was the put a minimum required Strength rating on some melee weapons, the same way that the bows in No Future are computed.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: (04:08:37/08-27-19) »
Unopposed means no using Edge against it. You don't get to roll Body + Strength to resist, but simply have your Strength as threshold, meaning you lose on a tie as well. If you're going 8 Body, 2 Strength as melee Troll, expect to be disarmed because they only need 2 hits, not face an edgeable dicepool of 10 dice.

All they need to do is use Block as Minor Action against your attack, then on a successful defense, they can use 2 Edge for Wrest to roll against your Strength as threshold to disarm you.

In situations where brute force matters, such as breaking down barriers, Strength is used.
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penllawen

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« Reply #6 on: (04:34:30/08-27-19) »
Unopposed means no using Edge against it. You don't get to roll Body + Strength to resist, but simply have your Strength as threshold, meaning you lose on a tie as well. If you're going 8 Body, 2 Strength as melee Troll, expect to be disarmed because they only need 2 hits, not face an edgeable dicepool of 10 dice.
I agree about Edge but why did Body suddenly appear here? Your counter-example is rather arbitrary. Consider a 2 Body / 8 Strength troll. Under RAW, the opponent is rolling against a static threshold of 8. With your proposal, the opponent is rolling against 10 Edgeable dice. As the defender, I'd prefer the former scenario. I don't think this proves anything either way.

Also, as GM, I'd likely allow the defender to use Edge on the attacker's roll. Why wouldn't you allow that? It seems very reasonable. I see the use of a static threshold tied to Strength here as little more than a small mechanical speedup to skip one dice roll compared to if the roll was opposed, very similar to if the character chose to buy hits on the roll but at a very generous rate of exchange of 1 die = 1 hit.

And finally -- surely approximately zero melee builds in 6e will even use weapons anyway? They can't disarm your fists, which also do more damage than a Panther XXL.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: (04:41:55/08-27-19) »
We are explicitly talking here about Strength and melee weapons, so there's nothing arbitrary about the example. If anything, 'yes but an 8-Strength character' is arbitrary because we already established those will likely use unarmed attacks. So we're specifically talking here about Melee weapons with low Strength.

As for Body: Because Body + Strength is used against tackling, against Levitation and against Binding. So most likely, if Wrest was an opposed roll, it'd face Body + Strength, not just Strength like you're assuming with your 1-die-1-hit claim. As such, it's not a sudden appearance: It's the likely alternative of the threshold.
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penllawen

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« Reply #8 on: (04:51:39/08-27-19) »
not just Strength like you're assuming with your 1-die-1-hit claim
Huh? It's not a "claim", I'm not making this up, it's RAW. Isn't it? RAW is: opponent rolls against the defender's strength as a static threshold?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: (05:07:09/08-27-19) »
Yes. But a threshold is NOT the same as 'you're basically buying 1 hit per die'. Because if it involved dice, it'd be an opposed test and you wouldn't be rolling a single attribute to resist. So it's NOT equivalent to an opposed Strength roll, because it's not an opposed Strength roll. It's Close Combat + Agility [Opponent Strength]. If it were an opposed roll, it'd still not be an opposed Strength roll, it would be Close Combat + Agility vs X + Strength, where X likely would be Body, given similar pools. So RAW this is NOT an opposed Strength roll, and even under a different rule it wouldn't be.

Also, Disarm is NOT 2 attacks. You Call a Shot, spend 5 Edge to make it a Disarm attempt instead, then roll the normal attack. Not sure why someone told you different.
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penllawen

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« Reply #10 on: (05:18:14/08-27-19) »
I'm sorry, I am deeply confused what's happening here. The OP was observing that in their opinion Strength doesn't matter much. I'm talking about how I understand the RAW. And you're... proposing a houserule that makes Strength matter less, by including Body in the mechanic? Is that correct?

Also, Disarm is NOT 2 attacks. You Call a Shot, spend 5 Edge to make it a Disarm attempt instead, then roll the normal attack. Not sure why someone told you different.
Oh, probably I misunderstood, not someone told me wrong. So there are two similar "take the person's weapon" mechanics -- one offensive (Disarm) and one defensive (Wrest)?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #11 on: (05:20:05/08-27-19) »
I'm sorry, I am deeply confused what's happening here. The OP was observing that in their opinion Strength doesn't matter much. I'm talking about how I understand the RAW. And you're... proposing a houserule that makes Strength matter less, by including Body in the mechanic? Is that correct?
It is not. I was explaining why the terminology you were using is incorrect.
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Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #12 on: (06:41:51/08-27-19) »
5 edge to disarmed me?
That's an absolute win!!  8)

And edge action [Wrest] can only be use IF they use minor action to block your attack first AND they need to spend 2 edge to do that.
So, it's not happen as often as you might thinks.
« Last Edit: (06:58:30/08-27-19) by Jimmy_Pvish »

focke

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« Reply #13 on: (06:48:49/08-27-19) »
It is looking like this is something I am going to house rule. I'm going to assume that all damage listed is for a str 3 individual. So that would be an unarmed damage of 2 (str/2 round up). So a combat knife that has DV of 3 I'll change to str/2 round up +1.

penllawen

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« Reply #14 on: (07:08:18/08-27-19) »
It is looking like this is something I am going to house rule. I'm going to assume that all damage listed is for a str 3 individual. So that would be an unarmed damage of 2 (str/2 round up). So a combat knife that has DV of 3 I'll change to str/2 round up +1.
Note this will scale very high.

Troll max racial Strength is 9, plus augs gives you max 13; 10+ is quite easy to come by. So Str/2 is going to range over 5-7.

The most damaging melee weapon is a combat axe at 5P, which implies (str/2)+3 by your idea. So that's a maximum of 10P for a full buffed troll, and 7-8P for moderately optimised characters. That's really high compared to 2-4P for pistols, 5P for a sniper rifle, 7P for an assault cannon, or 8P from a burst-fire HMG.