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6e Play/Stress Test

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markelphoenix

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« Reply #60 on: <09-03-19/1904:14> »
...
Sovereign sends in his 2 service spirit, saying "Being as subtle as you can, scout out this building and report back to me how many floors it has, anything magically active you see or encounter, and the number of armed metahumans you see.". The spirit departs to do this.
...

I enjoy seeing idiosyncrasies such as these. Telling an armed person from an unarmed person via assensing isn't something I would have thought even possible.

I've always understood that from astral, a gun is essentially impossible to discern from a clipboard. In my understanding, all that you can tell from assensing a nonmagical item is what the bearer or owner feels, in an emotional sense, about the object.  And in either case, probably little to nothing, if it's corp-issued gear.  Your wedding ring or your locket with your mum's portrait inside it? You can't tell what specifically it is in a physical sense, but you MIGHT be able to reason it out based on the specific emotional importance it has to its wearer...

If it has a shape in the Astral, and the spirits mental skills were sufficiently high, would it not be reasonable to assume they could reason out a weapon by it's astral shadow?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #61 on: <09-03-19/1906:13> »
If it has a shape in the Astral, and the spirits mental skills were sufficiently high, would it not be reasonable to assume they could reason out a weapon by it's astral shadow?

That presumes the shadow has a real correlation with the physical shape.

You can't tell a troll adult from a human baby in astral, so I don't see how a gun's shape is easily discernible from a clipboard's shape.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #62 on: <09-03-19/1908:31> »
If it has a shape in the Astral, and the spirits mental skills were sufficiently high, would it not be reasonable to assume they could reason out a weapon by it's astral shadow?

That presumes the shadow has a real correlation with the physical shape.

You can't tell a troll adult from a human baby in astral, so I don't see how a gun's shape is easily discernible from a clipboard's shape.

What? I have never seen anything to indicate you canít tell a troll shape from a human baby or even a troll baby from a human baby apart in the astral.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #63 on: <09-03-19/1911:38> »
If it has a shape in the Astral, and the spirits mental skills were sufficiently high, would it not be reasonable to assume they could reason out a weapon by it's astral shadow?

That presumes the shadow has a real correlation with the physical shape.

You can't tell a troll adult from a human baby in astral, so I don't see how a gun's shape is easily discernible from a clipboard's shape.

What? I have never seen anything to indicate you canít tell a troll shape from a human baby or even a troll baby from a human baby apart in the astral.

What says that you CAN?

Sex, Age, metatype, and many other things are decidedly NOT on the list of things you can discern via assensing.

As a matter of fact, once you start saying you CAN see these things, you get into total landmined territory.  What's the "true" gender, according to the aura, of a biological man who's a trans woman?  What about elf/ork poseurs?  No matter where you draw the line, other than "you flatly can't tell these things", is a lose/lose.

Furthermore, it's been established for a long time now that your aura extends "out from your body and through your clothing".  This is the exact rationale for why you can still target people inside fully-encompassing armor with spells.  Since the clothing (and presumably, other carried gear) is INSIDE the aura, from an astral perspective, it's somewhat hazy to me that you could see any carried gear at all.
« Last Edit: <09-03-19/1917:13> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #64 on: <09-03-19/1918:51> »
Yeah, the Astral plane is all Auras and Shadows.  Physical size has no bearing on what your Aura is like.   

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #65 on: <09-03-19/1930:43> »
I donít know who or what edition wrecked the fluff of the astral along the way but damn I donít wonít to play in it.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #66 on: <09-03-19/2003:39> »
I donít know who or what edition wrecked the fluff of the astral along the way but damn I donít wonít to play in it.

That would be, if my memory serves, 1st edition.

2nd edition establishes on pg 146 that your aura's appearance has no correlation to your physical appearance.  It's also the page that governs inspecting auras, and race/sex/age is never something established as discernable.

I'm 95% sure this was the same in 1e, but I can't find my 1e rulebook at the moment.  And that's aggravating....I didn't put it away where it belongs...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #67 on: <09-03-19/2009:54> »
I don’t know who or what edition wrecked the fluff of the astral along the way but damn I don’t won’t to play in it.

That would be, if my memory serves, 1st edition.

2nd edition establishes on pg 146 that your aura's appearance has no correlation to your physical appearance.  It's also the page that governs inspecting auras, and race/sex/age is never something established as discernable.

I'm 95% sure this was the same in 1e, but I can't find my 1e rulebook at the moment.  And that's aggravating....I didn't put it away where it belongs...

The thing is you have an aura you aren’t a aura. The astral never blocked you from seeing a troll for being a troll or a building being a building or a shop stall being a shop stall. The aura overlapped you but it wasn’t all you were. Pretty much all the fiction up through 3e that I can recall if the protagonist was a mage and they went astral they saw a troll but with a aura they didn’t just see a aura.


Heck this used to be a way to see through mask spells. You’d see the real physical them, their aura and the spells aura.
« Last Edit: <09-03-19/2013:09> by Shinobi Killfist »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #68 on: <09-03-19/2012:49> »
I donít know who or what edition wrecked the fluff of the astral along the way but damn I donít wonít to play in it.

That would be, if my memory serves, 1st edition.

2nd edition establishes on pg 146 that your aura's appearance has no correlation to your physical appearance.  It's also the page that governs inspecting auras, and race/sex/age is never something established as discernable.

I'm 95% sure this was the same in 1e, but I can't find my 1e rulebook at the moment.  And that's aggravating....I didn't put it away where it belongs...

The thing is you have an aura you arenít a aura. The astral never blocked you from seeing a troll for being a troll or a building being a building or a shop stall being a shop stall. The aura overlapped you but it wasnít all you were. Pretty much all the fiction up through 3e that I can recall Iíd the protagonist was a mage and they went astral they saw a troll but with a aura they didnít just see a aura.

Well, I don't know what to tell you other than it (discerning race/age/sex) wasn't a thing in the 5e rules, it's not a thing in the 6we rules, and as far as I can remember or tell, it never WAS a thing in any edition's rules.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Serin_Marst

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« Reply #69 on: <09-03-19/2020:52> »
I donít know who or what edition wrecked the fluff of the astral along the way but damn I donít wonít to play in it.

That would be, if my memory serves, 1st edition.

2nd edition establishes on pg 146 that your aura's appearance has no correlation to your physical appearance.  It's also the page that governs inspecting auras, and race/sex/age is never something established as discernable.

I'm 95% sure this was the same in 1e, but I can't find my 1e rulebook at the moment.  And that's aggravating....I didn't put it away where it belongs...

The thing is you have an aura you arenít a aura. The astral never blocked you from seeing a troll for being a troll or a building being a building or a shop stall being a shop stall. The aura overlapped you but it wasnít all you were. Pretty much all the fiction up through 3e that I can recall Iíd the protagonist was a mage and they went astral they saw a troll but with a aura they didnít just see a aura.

Well, I don't know what to tell you other than it (discerning race/age/sex) wasn't a thing in the 5e rules, it's not a thing in the 6we rules, and as far as I can remember or tell, it never WAS a thing in any edition's rules.

Doesn't match up with 3e.  The section on astral senses specifically call out that you could recognize a stop sign by it's shape and color, but the word would be gibberish or look at a piece of paper and pick up emotional content, but not read the words.  Only abstract concepts are indistinct, the rest of astral is a "mirror world" (exact wording) colored by emotional context.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #70 on: <09-03-19/2024:09> »
There you go Shinobi, looks like 3e is the version for you!
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Serin_Marst

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« Reply #71 on: <09-03-19/2054:34> »
There you go Shinobi, looks like 3e is the version for you!

3e is just the oldest edition that I still have access to.  I distinctly remember "see a computer, but can't read the screen" as an example from 2e (that's where I started, so I can't speak to 1e).  4e describes material objects as "faded and lacking detail" which is more indistinct, but hardly the "is that a baby or a troll" level of abstraction you are describing.  5e is the first that could be interpreted as astral looking like an impressionist watercolor but only if you read it without the context of previous editions.

That said, we're way off topic.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #72 on: <09-03-19/2101:18> »
I was beginning to wonder if my memory had finally fully slipped. Iíll stick with the 3e style it tells the better story.

Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #73 on: <09-03-19/2217:21> »
One type of character like mages being able to game the system more can be a rule issue. Personally I think 6e missed a opportunity to get rid of or seriously nerf the ability to permanently sustain spells, focusses in general and get spirits under control power wise.
I agree completely.

And "game the system" for mage is literary "playing as normal",
like samurai buy the bast ware/gun, decker buy the best deck/program, rigger buy the best RCC/drone etc.

Mage can just buy the best metamagic/spell/foci/spirit available to them and then they're gods of 6th world.

They're broken by default, mage's player has to holding back or the game start to falling apart, both game mechanic and lore wise.

FastJack

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« Reply #74 on: <09-03-19/2234:52> »
Quote from: Grimoire, 1st Edition, p. 65
Information in the Aura

Following is a list of the basic information a magician can read from an aura.
  • The relative level of the subject's Essence loss (low, average, or high).
  • Whether the subject is magically active to some extent (a magician or adept). Enchanted items and materials also display a distinctive aura that marks them as magical.
  • If someone is under a spell or possessed by a Spirit, that will be visible, with the Astral form of the spell or Spirit seen bound to the aura.
  • The true form of the subject. Beings appear as themselves, despite any disguise or transformation spells. Shapeshifters show their animal forms. This does not apply to beings with masked auras, of course. The "true form" seen in that case will in fact, be false.

Highlight is mine.