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6e humans.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #45 on: <08-22-19/1347:17> »
I feel like I didn't really understand the "Magicrun" thing until now. Wow. Thanks, Lormyr.

I don't know if this factored into Lormyr's character, but most Chicago campaign magicians made heavy use of the "Working for the People" rule unique to SRM.  This is a rule that allowed you to convert Nuyen into Karma, and after seeing the horrors it wrought it was toned down for Neo-Tokyo.  We'll see if it's even continued in SRM now that a new edition is out.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #46 on: <08-22-19/1358:57> »
Heck my Street Samurai converted a fair amount of Nuyen to Karma.  Other than the two "Reward" bits you get along the way, there really isn't a lot of room for more 'ware. 

Xenon

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« Reply #47 on: <08-22-19/1401:43> »
Just noticed that edge can be used to increase your initiative score at a (3 initiative score):(1 edge)-ratio. This seem to be done after you already rolled (when you actually have an initiative score to increase and you know exactly how much of a boost you need in order to move up in the queue) but before anyone get to take an action.

Say you start with 7 edge and increase your initiative score up to... say 9 points to go first and then spend for example 4 edge on a powerful 4-edge alpha strike boost to quickly take out the leader of the opposition. For example by adding your edge to your dice pool and make 6s explode or reroll all your failed dice after the test is done. While possible gaining two edge in the process. As an ambidextrous gunslinger you could for example also choose to fill the leader with lead from two narrow bursts, each dealing +2 DV without splitting the pool.

Then you spend the rest of the combat scene mopping up grunts while you bank the remaining 4-5 edge, hopefully leaving the scene with 7 edge that you get to keep and that you get to spend when it really matters at the beginning of the next confrontation.


Analytical Mind is basically "give hermetic mage free edge when they cast a spell" and it's dirt cheap at 3 karma.
Casting a spell is resolved with Sorcery + Magic last time I checked...


Have the rules changed so that magic=4, priority A is max for a starting character?
Max unadjusted magic from Magic or Resonance is 4 (at priority A) and this is used to calculate how many spells, rituals or power points you start the game with.

Adjusted maximum magic rating out of chargen, however, is 6 (you can use a combination of Magic or Resonance Priority, Adjustment Points from Metatype Priority and Customization Karma).


I never once lost a quickened spell to a ward in 5e.
If your GM let you walk around with perfect rolls force 1 quickened spells without any disruption then quickening quickly becomes very very powerful (game breaking even). In this case your GM should probably also let the street samurai constantly walk around in full combat armor and wield a sniper rifle out in the open without any consequence =)

Quickened spell attached to your aura will be immediately obvious for any astral observers. They don't even need to take a test to notice it. Regularly walking around with active spells should attract unwanted attention. You should be singled out in a crowd. You should be asked to drop your active spells when walking into establishments. Local authorities should pull you to the side and run SIN verification checks on your fake magic license connected to your fake SIN (often).

An active spell also have an actual tangible astral form. It can be actively disrupted directly from the astral plane and even from a wholly astral entity (and even if you cast the spell on the physical plane and is currently not even using astral perception). If the quickened spell is of low force (and pushed with reagents or edge to get many hits for powerful effect) then it will also be quite easy to disrupt (as it resist with magic + force + karma spent). Keeping an active rift to the astral plane is never a good idea. If you on a regular basis walk around with quickened spells then astral entities should try to dispel your quickened spells on a regular basis.

Since an active spell have an actual tangible astral form it also mean that they might get disrupted if pushed through another astral form (for example if you drive through a warded garage or take the elevator through a warded elevator shaft). Both the ward and the spell need to take a Force x 2 [Force] test. The form with least hits gets disrupted (which again mean that low force quickened spells will easily be disrupted). Wards should be plenty. You can't even walk into a bar without passing through a magic ward. If you are constantly walking around with active magic then you should also constantly need to worry about wards.

While living entities with a tangible astral form can press through their tangible astral form through wards (by taking a Magic + Charisma [Astral] v. barrier’s Force x 2 Opposed Test where net hits may be used to slip quickened spells through the ward) you first need to actually have a tangible astral form to begin with. If you are not using astral perception or projection then you will just have a living aura like everyone else and you will just walk through the ward without even noticing it until perhaps when you just passed through it (and each of your quickened spells will get in astral intersection with the ward on their own).

The tools are there. Its up to the GM to use them. Shrug.

penllawen

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« Reply #48 on: <08-22-19/1405:35> »
I don't know if this factored into Lormyr's character, but most Chicago campaign magicians made heavy use of the "Working for the People" rule unique to SRM.  This is a rule that allowed you to convert Nuyen into Karma, and after seeing the horrors it wrought it was toned down for Neo-Tokyo.  We'll see if it's even continued in SRM now that a new edition is out.
Sure, it's clear he's very high karma (however he came by them). But if you look at that sheet as a library of multiple techniques, they don't all need sky-high karma to pull off. A mage could get quickening and a couple of attribute buff spells for, what, 30 karma or so? One initiation plus the spells (if they don't already have them) plus 1 karma Quickening on each.

(I don't use karma-for-cash in my campaigns; instead I allow the players to split the karma and cash rewards from a run non-equally if they choose. So the mundanes can take more of the cash and the awakened take more of the karma.)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #49 on: <08-22-19/1409:00> »
@Xenon The errata of Edge spending to once per Action allows that and I like it.

The problems with Quickening include overcasting and searching for high hits. With forced buying hits SRM nerfed it, I also disallowed overcasting in my home campaign to balance it out more. But you no longer pay 1 karma per Force in 5e and 6w.
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Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #50 on: <08-22-19/1425:05> »
Analytical Mind is basically "give hermetic mage free edge when they cast a spell" and it's dirt cheap at 3 karma.
Casting a spell is resolved with Sorcery + Magic last time I checked...
Drain Resistant test is LOG+WILL

Lormyr

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« Reply #51 on: <08-22-19/1427:25> »
I don't know if this factored into Lormyr's character, but most Chicago campaign magicians made heavy use of the "Working for the People" rule unique to SRM.

Employed to the fullest allowable amount, of course. I was surprised it was allowed to remain in any form for Neo-Tokyo, it's poor for balance.

If your GM let you walk around with perfect rolls force 1 quickened spells without any disruption then quickening quickly becomes very very powerful (game breaking even).

It was a Missions characters, so all hits were bought. Quickening by itself, with bought hits, is very strong. Once you factor in a combination of the breadth of spells in the game, assisted casting from spirits, and/or rolling hits as opposed to buying them it is most certainly game breaking.

Quickened spell attached to your aura will be immediately obvious for any astral observers. They don't even need to take a test to notice it.

Yep, subtlety was out the window for that PC. He also ended with a 10 or 11 public awareness.

Regularly walking around with active spells should attract unwanted attention. You should be singled out in a crowd. You should be asked to drop your active spells when walking into establishments. Local authorities should pull you to the side and run SIN verification checks on your fake magic license connected to your fake SIN (often).

This was pretty easy to get around with SINs, licenses, social skills from the party, and the occasional bribe. Also there was that force 18 water spirit glowering over my shoulder.

If you on a regular basis walk around with quickened spells then astral entities should try to dispel your quickened spells on a regular basis.

Clever GMs, like Ray, targeted my foci from time to time, and I would occasionally shut those down for safety. Since I could easily survive the drain from casting spells at maximum force, I routinely did that for the ones I quickened, so dispelling them was pretty well outside the realm of mathematical possibility. Counsterpelling + Magic vs. force + magic + karma invested in quickening, then soaking the drain of the spell regardless of how it goes, is just not economic in any regard. In my case it was 37 dice resisting the dispelling at the end.

If you are constantly walking around with active magic then you should also constantly need to worry about wards. You can't even walk into a bar without passing through a magic ward.

I find the bar example unrealistic and excessive (unless we're talking class A and B neighborhoods), but other than that little nit pick, yep. There was more than one occasion I waited outside while the team talked, or said fuck it and just broke the ward and strolled through with stealth out the window.

The tools are there. Its up to the GM to use them. Shrug.

I had it a bit easier due to the confines of Missions gaming, but let me tell you, every exceptional GM I played with that knew my character made my licensing and social life appropriately difficult every chance they got.

I've 3 Missions PCs, and the other 2 are mundane. I'm not saying I recommend playing this way, but I did have a lot of fun both building and playing it.

Sure, it's clear he's very high karma (however he came by them). But if you look at that sheet as a library of multiple techniques, they don't all need sky-high karma to pull off. A mage could get quickening and a couple of attribute buff spells for, what, 30 karma or so? One initiation plus the spells (if they don't already have them) plus 1 karma Quickening on each.

And that is the point. The character had over a 1,000 karma at the end, which just makes the example stupider, but you don't need anywhere near that to hit the "I can't die unless you target me with a deity or character exceptionally outside of my karma total" point. A centering foci, 4 initiations, 6 or spells, and a handful of karma for quickening. The build goes off around 75-100 earned karma.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Lormyr

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« Reply #52 on: <08-22-19/1435:36> »
The problems with Quickening include overcasting and searching for high hits. With forced buying hits SRM nerfed it, I also disallowed overcasting in my home campaign to balance it out more. But you no longer pay 1 karma per Force in 5e and 6w.

Quickening is really hard for me to settle on. On the one hand, I feel like it has to be in the game, because mages need attribute augmentation options too.

On the other hand, it is too damn good for everything else. 6e balanced it, primarily because they obliterated the use of just about any other spell you'd want to quicken.

In 5e, I think the best play would be to limit it to bought hits only, not have allowed bound spirits to assist spellcasting, and you can only ever have your Magic rating in quickened spells.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #53 on: <08-22-19/1437:52> »
Also there was that force 18 water spirit glowering over my shoulder.
OH MY DUNKELZAHN :o
That is, like, carrying machine gun that fire tactical nuke.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #54 on: <08-22-19/1439:17> »
One of the perks of missions is gms aren’t tailoring the missions and opposition to the party. So optimization goes further than it might in a home game.

As an example astral security in my home games is very focused on dispelling as it’s one of the few astral tasks they can do onto the physical world  and 1 karma quickening would be shredded quick. But there does become a point where it doesn’t matter. Let’s say the astral mage is quick and takes down 3 in the first combat turn. 3 out of 5 is big. 3 out of 15 isn’t a big hit. Of course if a astral mage spotted that many he might return to his body and call up some big guns.

But any rule that relies on the GM to fix it probably needs a rewrite. There should be a cap on quickenings you can maintain on yourself. Something like a single aura can only hold onto
X # if quickened spells.

Are quickened spells already in 6e or is that magic book fodder?

Finstersang

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« Reply #55 on: <08-22-19/1449:55> »
Analytical Mind is basically "give hermetic mage free edge when they cast a spell" and it's dirt cheap at 3 karma.
Casting a spell is resolved with Sorcery + Magic last time I checked...
Drain Resistant test is LOG+WILL

It´s a mind-boggingly powerfull Quality for its low price , BUT I´m pretty damn sure that this is not intended.

It´s also highly questionable if the RAW can be interpreted as such: Analytica Mind applies to Logic-based Tests, which is not the same as "Every test involving Logic" afaik. The more complete phrasing is likely "Logic-based skill test". So it´s just badly worded.

Still a thing for errata tho, just in case. 

Lormyr

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« Reply #56 on: <08-22-19/1457:36> »
OH MY DUNKELZAHN :o
That is, like, carrying machine gun that fire tactical nuke.

It really should not have been possible in the rules, yet there we were. Both spirits and foci need a hard cap for mortal hands. 6 is good. And drastically increase the rarity and cost of the foci.

One of the perks of missions is gms aren’t tailoring the missions and opposition to the party. So optimization goes further than it might in a home game.

True on the optimization, but the former is not entirely accurate. Every Mission has this caveat in the running the game blurb:

"Mission Difficulty

GMs are encouraged to use their own judgment, and to adjust the difficulty of the encounter to take into account the abilities of the players. If the players have no magical support, replace magical defenses with mundane ones. If the players are weak on combat, reduce the number of enemies by one or two. Conversely, if they’re steam-rolling the opposition, add one or two enemies to the fight. Missions should be difficult and something of a challenge, but should not be insurmountable.
A simple method for adjusting difficulty is to simply increase the dice pools and Professional Ratings of the enemies. A simple +1 or +2 to all combat and defense tests gives enemies a minor boost in power, while a +3 or 4 will make them truly formidable. Adding to their Professional Rating will give them a larger group Edge pool to draw from, and gamemasters are encourage to use this Edge when logical."

So that said, you just have to be fair and judicious with your use of scaling opposition. I had some GMs that took that liberty with Phain (just adding 7-10 dice to all of their rolls towards the end of my career was common), and I had some that didn't care and just made the game as fun as possible. Ray Rigel, Tony Merryman, Steve Roth, John Siemon, and Michael Etheridge were always my local favorites.

When we ran Dragon's Song part 4, the party egged me on to see if I could handle the great western dragon Paletooth solo, so I went for it. That thing roasting to a force 24 lightning bolt was the session Steve (in very excellent humor) stopped bothering to ramp up the opposition. It was one of the few times I really unleashed playing him.

Are quickened spells already in 6e or is that magic book fodder?

Yeah, but the only spells worth doing are attributes and maybe 1 DR spell. So it's still very good for the edition, but nowhere near the impact it could potentially have in 5e.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #57 on: <08-22-19/1502:17> »
It´s a mind-boggingly powerfull Quality for its low price , BUT I´m pretty damn sure that this is not intended.

It´s also highly questionable if the RAW can be interpreted as such: Analytica Mind applies to Logic-based Tests, which is not the same as "Every test involving Logic" afaik. The more complete phrasing is likely "Logic-based skill test". So it´s just badly worded. Still a thing for errata tho, just in case.
Oh, drain resistant test is not even the worst offender for Analytical Mind abuse.

Memory test is also LOG base test, gain edge by having some flashback in your head, like in cartoon/anime.

And Knowledge skills is skill test too you know..... ::)
« Last Edit: <08-22-19/1506:44> by Jimmy_Pvish »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #58 on: <08-22-19/1505:32> »
Analytical Mind no doubt will be hit by a nerf bat so I'm not that worried about it.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #59 on: <08-22-19/1513:39> »
It´s a mind-boggingly powerfull Quality for its low price , BUT I´m pretty damn sure that this is not intended.

It´s also highly questionable if the RAW can be interpreted as such: Analytica Mind applies to Logic-based Tests, which is not the same as "Every test involving Logic" afaik. The more complete phrasing is likely "Logic-based skill test". So it´s just badly worded. Still a thing for errata tho, just in case.
Oh, drain resistant test is not even the worst offender for Analytical Mind abuse.

Memory test is also LOG base test, gain edge by having some flashback in your head, like in cartoon/anime.

And Knowledge skills is skill test too you know..... ::)

Hell most hacking tests are logic. Add in some other edge gain and deckers are always getting 2 edge a turn.