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Change blindness gathering thread

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #30 on: <08-23-19/1340:50> »
Of course GMs can do whatever they like.

But spotting hidden weapons being an unopposed test was a deliberate change, not a case of change blindness.

Right but the Lined Coat granting Edge seems to be operating on the old presumption of an Opposed test.  "Palming" spec doesn't do what it used to do.  ect, ect. 

I mean, I'll take the free Edge, don't get me wrong... ;D

I'm not so sure.  It never says the edge goes towards or is triggered by your own attempt to conceal something.  You just get edge for when someone tries to spot something you stowed inside it.  Presumably you'll use that edge to force th observer to reroll a hit. Or just bank it.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #31 on: <08-23-19/1347:29> »
I keep forgetting about the force a re-roll on one dice.   

Xenon

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« Reply #32 on: <08-23-19/1420:49> »
You use palming when you for example steal that close proximity RFID-card from the security guard (so that you can copy it) and then you would also use palming again when you try to return it without your mark noticing.

Besides 'Reroll one die' for your opponent edge boost you also have the 'Count 2s as glitches for the target' edge boost.

Xenon

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« Reply #33 on: <08-24-19/0214:12> »
Not sure if "change blindness"-related or not, but Wild Die (p. 48-49) says that it will be triggered by stuff like "gear, spells and qualities". Now... I have been flipping all over the book and I can only find a total of three references to it.

Spray attacks (p. 117)
Overclock program (p. 185)
Cyberware overdrive (p. 282)

Was this intended to be an actual game mechanic, but that mostly -but not entirely- got cut out at some point of the iteration...?

Finstersang

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« Reply #34 on: <08-24-19/0651:07> »
Yeah, that‘s one of the mechanic they really could have done more with IMO.

F.i. it would have been really fitting for some kind of „Spray and Pay“ Firing Option as an alternative to the „Narrow“ Bursts in the current Core rules. Or for additional Perks in the same style as the Overclocker Quality.

Maybe they elaborate more on this mechanic in the Supplements.
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

jman5000

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« Reply #35 on: <08-26-19/1049:06> »
not sure if this is applicable.

for context.  I've never played any SR, and this is the first SR Core book I own.

in the character creation chapter - at the end - there is this entire section of Archetypes.   like a dozen pages or more (don't have the book handy).  but there is no explanation as to what this section is for.  are these pre-generated characters?  if so, why are they not in a character sheet format?  are these examples of how to build characters "optimally"? then why isn't it walking us through the various generation steps, especially walking us through the selections made on the priority table?  is it a ready-to-play band of runners to throw against your PCs? then why isn't it in the critters section?  This entire section just has me sooo confused and wondering why so much page real estate was used for a purpose that I cannot fathom.  a quick blurb would have gone a real long way to understand what this is all about.

FastJack

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« Reply #36 on: <08-26-19/1053:23> »
In every edition, Archetypes are presented for the players. You can use these characters right out of the book, gain inspiration on how to build your character, or modify them and use them. The Beginner Box Set present characters in the character sheet format, that are made as pre-gens.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #37 on: <08-26-19/1056:07> »
Good point, I added a bit of a note. Keep 'em coming! =D
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jman5000

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« Reply #38 on: <08-26-19/1102:37> »
In every edition, Archetypes are presented for the players. You can use these characters right out of the book, gain inspiration on how to build your character, or modify them and use them. The Beginner Box Set present characters in the character sheet format, that are made as pre-gens.

cheers!

as a total newb - your description makes sense, but is not clear at all when looking at the content inside the book.  its very hard to understand the purpose of those archetypes.  if I want to use them as a playable character - I still need to transfer them into character sheets and do some extra work (eg. condition monitors etc.), not a big deal but not obvious.  if I want to use them as inspiration on how to create a similar build - I need to figure out how to reverse engineer what priorities were picked etc.  ideally - because this is in the character section - this would have been a great example of showing how, through the step-by-step process we can end up with an example archetype - helping new players figure out how to build a "basic, vanilla" decker for example.

FastJack

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« Reply #39 on: <08-26-19/1112:47> »
They have been presented in that format from 1st edition on, and it can be a bit confusing. The reason it is presented that way is that they want to give you ideas, not just give you "here's Fighter A" to jump into the game with. They hope to inspire you to create your own, since it is a class-less system and you can build a mage that can deck, for example.

jman5000

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« Reply #40 on: <08-26-19/1243:04> »
They have been presented in that format from 1st edition on, and it can be a bit confusing. The reason it is presented that way is that they want to give you ideas, not just give you "here's Fighter A" to jump into the game with. They hope to inspire you to create your own, since it is a class-less system and you can build a mage that can deck, for example.

funny.  this may be a case of change blindness - but within 4e or 5e.   6e has simply inherited the blindness from the earlier edition.

I took a quick scan of the 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e rulebooks (didn't have access to 4e - thank you friend for helping me here!)
in 1e, 2e and 3e, there is a clear description of what the archetypes are, what they are meant for, how they should be used, and basically allows those to jump right into the action.
in 1e, pg 32, the sections "Generating Characters" and "Archetypes"
in 2e, pg 44, the sections "building characters"  and "Archetypes"
in 3e, pg 64, the sections "sample characters"
in 4e - don't know
in 5e - there is only a list of archetypes - without any preamble or description of what these are or how they should be used *this is change blindness, as it is assumed that you know from previous editions what to do with this section
in 6e - following the same method as 5e, the archetypes are listed as-is without any discussion about *why* they are there or how they are to be used.  *see commentary above for 5e

now, don't get me wrong - I'm not looking to argue - at all - I accept your answers as given!  However, as a fairly experienced GM and as a SR first timer looking at the book for the first time this section *is* confusing.  its not obvious how this information should be used.  when talking about this with a friend who is more experienced with different editions of SR - he agreed, it's confusing.  a single paragraph, like in 1e-3e would have done wonders to "close the circle" as it were for these pages.

specifically Fast Jack - I think your reply assumes prior knowledge of different editions. - ie, change blindness 

you said:  They have been presented in that format from 1st edition on, and it can be a bit confusing.
1e-3e is pretty clear what these archetypes are for.  it very explicitly states:
for example, in 1e, Archetypes on pp. 32 state: "...to create a shadowrun character, start with one of the classes presented in the archetypes chapter.  this lets you get started right away.  No fuss, no muss.  right into the action..."

you said:  The reason it is presented that way is that they want to give you ideas, not just give you "here's Fighter A" to jump into the game with.
1e-3e explicitly states that the archetypes *are* to be used to jump into the game with right away.
1e.  "...this lets you get started right away.  No fuss, no muss.  right into the action...."
2e.  "...Players who want to jump right into Shadowrun can simply choose one of the Archetypes, pre-generated, typical characters, provided on pp. 49-64."
3e.  "...the following section provides sixteen pre-generated Sample Characters that can be used as starting characters or as the base for building new characters....

you said:  "They hope to inspire you to create your own, since it is a class-less system and you can build a mage that can deck,"
this is awesome!  exactly what I would want when given examples - however, the archetypes as presented - actually don't help in this regard - because there is no way (without effort) to figure out how priorities were used, how attribute or skill points were spent and how the classless char gen system can be engaged to inspire players to create our own concepts...

anyway, tl;dr.  a minor point.  i totally respect your answer and not tying to be a d*@k at all.  I *Get* what they are trying to do here but it assumes, IMO, prior edition knowledge to parse why there is a section called "archetypes" without any preamble or context attached to it.

FastJack

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« Reply #41 on: <08-26-19/1301:26> »
Oh, I totally agree that it's change blindness, which is why it's great that it's in this thread. There's a lot of stuff that is just "assumed" because fans have gone through multiple editions and stuff is just a "gimme". The Archetypes, Essence starts at Six, etc. All are indicative of the fact that it's always been that way, and no one realized it wasn't described in the new edition for new players.

jman5000

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« Reply #42 on: <08-26-19/1335:14> »
not sure if this is blindness or errata, or something else.

but in the interest of disambiguation:
in Combat "DV" = Damage Value
in Magic "DV" = Drain Value

this *could* be improved

cheers,
J.


Michael Chandra

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« Reply #43 on: <08-26-19/1344:32> »
Yeah they had that in SR5 and it's confusing. XD
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skalchemist

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« Reply #44 on: <08-26-19/1410:46> »
To 2nd and enhance JMan5000's thoughts, I feel it would be VERY useful if the archetypes at least mentioned the priority picks used to create them, especially if there was some explanatory text as to why those priorities were necessary. I think that would help new players get a sense of why one would choose Skills as Priority A versus Attributes vs. Magic vs. whatever.