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[6E] Gas Attack Rules

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Typhus

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« on: <10-04-19/1719:38> »
Have we already talked about the missing and incomplete Gas Attack info?

In case not, to sum up:

* Gas attacks (per p. 116) are supposed to have Concentration, Range and DV.  Toxins appear to have none of these things.  Under the Toxins section, they have no DV, they have instead "Power".  Gas grenades, the only such vector for these types of attacks in the CRB, refer back to p.116, and provide no Range or Concentration rules or ratings. 

* Concentration is partially explained under Toxins, but only in the context of injection or continued contact, not gas spreads.  The Gas Attack rules imply that "Concentration" builds up, but never explains in what way other than very vaguely.

In short, these appear to be unusable as written.  The ideas are an intriguing start to mechanizing the spread of gasses, but as incomplete as they are, they don't appear to able to be used in any authoritative way.  Either that or the rules are so strewn around and obliquely referenced that you need to get a Sherpa and a bloodhound to find them and connect the various dots.  But, hey, maybe its me.

(A) Did this already get talked through somewhere?  I don't need to re-litigate anything if it's clarified somewhere.  Search didn't help.

(B) Will these rules also be errated?  Are they even on "the list"

Here's my best guess so far, but it runs aground quickly.

If you take a second dose while the first is in effect, you have a Concentration build-up effect, and your next Resistance roll is at +1 Power/DV.  This happens every 10 combat rounds, per the Concentration and Duration rules under Toxins.

So how many "doses" are in a gas attack?  I can only assume 1, as there's no statements to the contrary.  UNLESS you are in an “enclosed space”, in which case “the concentration builds up to "full over rounds 1-5”.  What this means I have no ability to be sure of with the missing info.  I guess it could mean +1 P/DV per round, capping at that point, regardless of room size? 

Thus trapped in a room and exposed to a gas toxin attack:   
Round 1, you resist the normal Power.  According to the Concentration rules, you would not resist again for another 10 rounds. 
However, the Concentration is continuing to build up.  So, if a second person comes in to the area of effect on round 2, they make a Toxin Resist test with a +1 DV (Power), due to the concentration effect.

All gasses go inert at round 10, apparently, so if you resist the first time, you are fine for the rest of the exposure duration, it looks like.  Per Concentration, you don't re-test.

However, if the gas is merely impeded but not contained, the Concentration effect does begin to go back down, by one and then two points on R9 and R10 respectively before it goes inert after round 10.  So on R10, if I walk into the gas, I resist (Round 10 Base Effect)+3 Concentration [down from the +5 max by 2 points from R9 and 10].

Did I get that right?  If so, I want a Sherpa license added to my fake SIN.

The attack still has no range increment to work with, and no clues that I can find in logical places on what that should be set at.  Intuition says 5m is a good baseline.
« Last Edit: <10-04-19/1722:40> by Typhus »

Typhus

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« Reply #1 on: <10-04-19/1736:30> »
Update to note there is another conflict in the rules.  All the inhalant toxins specify inert timers longer than 10 rounds.  So, I'm guessing this is another area where at least two different folks weren't able to coordinate?  Or was this Captain Copypasta running amok again?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <10-04-19/1958:13> »
Quote from: Power
Power tells how powerful the toxin is. For toxins
that do actual damage, either Physical or Stun,
Power serves as the DV of the attack. A Toxin Resistance
test (Body + Willpower + the rating of any
appropriate protective gear/systems) is used to reduce
the damage.
In other words, any toxin that does damage actually does have a DV, as the rules mention. It's explicitly mentioned?

Quote from: Duration
Duration offers the length the substance stays
effective in the bloodstream for the purposes of
Concentration.
Quote from: Concentration
Likewise, if an individual is left in
contact with a toxin for an extended period, the effects
can be increased. If the victim is still being exposed
to the toxin after 10 combat rounds, perform
another Toxin Resistance test, and so on each time
another 10 combat rounds passes. For each subsequent
Toxin Resistance test after the first, increase
the Power of the toxin by +1, cumulatively.

In other words, if you're in a gas cloud for more than 10 turns, you'll take damage again. And given how all toxins have a significant duration, even if you temporarily leave the gascloud, re-entering one will trigger the concentration bonus to its damage. On the other hand, under normal circumstances a gas attack only lasts 10 rounds or less, so you'll only take the damage once unless a second gas attack takes place, or constantly supplied somehow in an enclosed space (in an open space it would be expensive as hell).

Furthermore, the Duration isn't how long the toxin stays active before going inert, it's how long you're sensitive to a second exposure. So it's not that a cloud of Seven-7 lasts at least 10 minutes, it's that if you get hit by it, a second exposure within the next 10~50 minutes depending on Body will hurt even more, even if you just get a sniff at first. Duration is VERY explicitly not about gas going inert, but about Concentration, so your claimed conflict doesn't exist, it's simply due to not reading the toxin glossary properly.

As for concentration: A gas-grenade contains 20 doses of a toxin and produces a gas cloud, so that would be normal level. If the area is enclosed, as the rules mention the Concentration builds up more. If the GM goes 'well given the limited space, the concentration will five-fold', that will take 5 rounds to reach so concentration 1 turn 1, 2 turn 2, etc. Threefold? 2 in turn 3, 3 in turn 5. If you enter the area after turn 4, you're going to have a really hard time. Better not open doors without paying attention.
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Typhus

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« Reply #3 on: <10-04-19/2345:00> »
Quote
Duration isn't how long the toxin stays active before going inert, it's how long you're sensitive to a second exposure.

I got this part.  The toxins themselves stay for much longer than the 10 rounds before going inert though (in their descriptions), so the 10 rounds idea is not actually a true thing.  Or at least not using any of the toxins?

Typhus

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« Reply #4 on: <10-04-19/2354:10> »
Quote
As for concentration: A gas-grenade contains 20 doses of a toxin and produces a gas cloud, so that would be normal level. If the area is enclosed, as the rules mention the Concentration builds up more. If the GM goes 'well given the limited space, the concentration will five-fold', that will take 5 rounds to reach so concentration 1 turn 1, 2 turn 2, etc. Threefold? 2 in turn 3, 3 in turn 5. If you enter the area after turn 4, you're going to have a really hard time. Better not open doors without paying attention.

This all hurts my brain.  I'm afraid I'm not following you any more closely than the book.  Can you walk me through this more clearly?

What do you mean by "normal level"?  Are you saying that if I am at ground zero, I am supposed to be taking 20 doses at once?  I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean, but Explain Like I'm 5?  Sorry to be so slow here but it's a rather complicated idea, and not explained clearly in the book.  I;m afraid your effort didn't make it through the confusion caused by the book text either.

"Concentration" also doesn't quite make sense to me, due to the way it was used.  This is just the "Concentration bonus" right?  Which builds at +1 DV/Power per turn (unless increased at a different rate due to being in an enclosed space (apparently at a GM fiat on what that means I gather)? 

I followed everything else I think.

Also if there's some reference to the Range band of the gas cloud, I haven't found it yet.  I get how it's supposed to be used, the actual numeric value just appears to be omitted from the book.
« Last Edit: <10-04-19/2355:47> by Typhus »

Hephaestus

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« Reply #5 on: <10-05-19/2039:10> »
This all hurts my brain.  I'm afraid I'm not following you any more closely than the book.  Can you walk me through this more clearly?

What do you mean by "normal level"?  Are you saying that if I am at ground zero, I am supposed to be taking 20 doses at once?  I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean, but Explain Like I'm 5?  Sorry to be so slow here but it's a rather complicated idea, and not explained clearly in the book.  I;m afraid your effort didn't make it through the confusion caused by the book text either.

"Concentration" also doesn't quite make sense to me, due to the way it was used.  This is just the "Concentration bonus" right?  Which builds at +1 DV/Power per turn (unless increased at a different rate due to being in an enclosed space (apparently at a GM fiat on what that means I gather)? 

I followed everything else I think.

Also if there's some reference to the Range band of the gas cloud, I haven't found it yet.  I get how it's supposed to be used, the actual numeric value just appears to be omitted from the book.

I think the intent is that you need 20 doses of the drug/toxin in question to be able to make a large cloud of the substance at detonation. So you would take the regular power of the drug/toxin within the first range band, and then less if you are further away, because you are dispersing enough of the substance to affect multiple people at once.

As for range bands, I only see one in the book. The sidebar example states that the gas grenades used (note they just say "gas" and do not specify a drug/toxin) have a range band of 5m, so a maximum range of 20m from the point of impact.

I had to re-read the concentration thing a few times to (maybe) figure out the intent of the wording. Example: Say you are in a room that is effectively a 40m diameter circle, and a gas grenade goes off in the center. In the first 5 rounds, the normal effect bands are used, but after five rounds the gas has evenly filled the space, and you would take the full effect anywhere in the room. The problem with this interpretation is that the rules for gas grenades state the substance used goes inert after 10 rounds, so you would never need to re-test as per the Concentration rules on pg. 122. So all you would have to do is be in the farthest range band, take a test at 1/4 strength, and then let the gas go inert.

The simple fix to this would be to eliminate the range bands all together, and just say if you're in the cloud you have to resist the drug/toxin once.

Barring that, they would have to link a test to each range band, so each time you move to the next higher range band you have to retest at each higher concentration. That would also solve the "room fills with gas" problem, as you would have to retest as the concentration increased. Although the "fills to full after 5 rounds" thing would need to be changed to reflect the increasing bands every X rounds for the additional tests.