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Change blindness gathering thread

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Michael Chandra

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« on: (09:01:34/08-18-19) »
As we've noticed, there's quite a few places in the SR6 CRB where change blindness applied: People never realised a rule was missing (including me, despite having made 1600 notes while going through the book) and it's only implied by some other spots in the rules, so when a newbie asks the question all we can do is go 'uhm, probably X given page Y, but you're right it's missing'.

I'd like to gather a bunch of these, so it's easier to answer those questions. Please feel free to make suggestions so I can add more here, or suggest fixes to what I state. =)

From the top of my head:

Archetypes: These are sample characters you could use. Theoretically these should be chargen-legal, in reality in most editions last-minute tweaks to the rules cause them to not be entirely valid. But still a good thing to start with. =)

Unarmed DV: Implied to be Str/2 by the Natural Weapon power, and Stun by Killing Hands adept power
Essence: Starts at 6 implied by max Magic and essence reduction rules, death at 0 as implied by Essence Loss
Vehicle Soak: Body dice, because that's the soak pool when rammed
Weapon Mounts: manual cost is per mount, not one for all (no exact source)
Cyberlimbs: Only replace Agi/Str, implied by being the only attributes you can upgrade
Attributes: Start at 1 for non-Special, due to racial info chart and 'rank in physical/mental' tidbit page 63
1 Attribute maxed: This doesn't apply to Special Attributes (implied by them not receiving attribute points)
OS: Goes to 0 when you reboot / jack out (implied by that these end your encounters and the implication they end the access you obtained)

And on the other side, apparently intentional:

Spirits: Not tradition-bound (no tradition-specific statblocks, no restrictions mentioned)
« Last Edit: (14:05:44/09-28-19) by Michael Chandra »
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Hephaestus

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« Reply #1 on: (11:19:20/08-18-19) »
Off the top of my head:

There is a whole section describing Spray Weapons, and there are no spray weapons in the Gear section. The closest thing is the half-described "homemade flamethrower" in the example on page 118.

Vehicle damage soak is listed as BOD on page 201, while the example on page 118 states BODx2.

The Impaired Attribute negative quality has no limit to the number of times it can be taken (aside from the total cap of 6 qualities). This is easily exploitable to pay for positive qualities by trimming back the top-end cap of stats you don't plan on maxing out at a bonus of +8 karma per point.

Fragmentation Grenades and High Explosive grenades have the same DV at ground zero, and High Explosive Grenades have no other listed bonuses to account for this.

Anti-Vehicle rockets have 12 DV compared to the 16 DV on Fragmentation Rockets. With the removal of AP, this should be reflected by a higher DV (18-20 DV range) on direct hits against vehicles.

The cost for the Ares Antioch II seems wrong at 5900Ĩ, when the Armtech MGL-12 is only 5000Ĩ. Also, a "tube with a trigger" should not have an ammo capacity of 8.

Injection darts are listed at 5Ĩ + Toxin for 10 darts, but toxins are sold per dose. Does this mean for 10 darts, I need to purchase 10 doses of said toxin, or just one?

Vehicles can have Manual Operation added to them for 500Ĩ, but it is not specific as to what is being manually operated. Is it the vehicle, a single weapon mount, all weapon mounts, or everything?

First Aid requires a First Aid Kit, but there is no gear entry for a First Aid Kit. Does this mean a Medkit has to be used for a First Aid test?

Medkits have a Rating 1-6, but there is no explanation of what the rating does.

General streamlining comments:

If the calculation for something includes a stat squared, just list it as (stat)^2. Most people playing games like this understand basic math, and it just wastes space.

Don't list gear tables twice. The cyberjacks, commlinks, and cyberdecks tables are listed in two separate sections of the book.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #2 on: (11:43:12/08-18-19) »
Off the top of my head:

There is a whole section describing Spray Weapons, and there are no spray weapons in the Gear section. The closest thing is the half-described "homemade flamethrower" in the example on page 118.

Vehicle damage soak is listed as BOD on page 201, while the example on page 118 states BODx2.

The Impaired Attribute negative quality has no limit to the number of times it can be taken (aside from the total cap of 6 qualities). This is easily exploitable to pay for positive qualities by trimming back the top-end cap of stats you don't plan on maxing out at a bonus of +8 karma per point.

Fragmentation Grenades and High Explosive grenades have the same DV at ground zero, and High Explosive Grenades have no other listed bonuses to account for this.

Anti-Vehicle rockets have 12 DV compared to the 16 DV on Fragmentation Rockets. With the removal of AP, this should be reflected by a higher DV (18-20 DV range) on direct hits against vehicles.

The cost for the Ares Antioch II seems wrong at 5900Ĩ, when the Armtech MGL-12 is only 5000Ĩ. Also, a "tube with a trigger" should not have an ammo capacity of 8.

Injection darts are listed at 5Ĩ + Toxin for 10 darts, but toxins are sold per dose. Does this mean for 10 darts, I need to purchase 10 doses of said toxin, or just one?

Vehicles can have Manual Operation added to them for 500Ĩ, but it is not specific as to what is being manually operated. Is it the vehicle, a single weapon mount, all weapon mounts, or everything?

First Aid requires a First Aid Kit, but there is no gear entry for a First Aid Kit. Does this mean a Medkit has to be used for a First Aid test?

Medkits have a Rating 1-6, but there is no explanation of what the rating does.

General streamlining comments:

If the calculation for something includes a stat squared, just list it as (stat)^2. Most people playing games like this understand basic math, and it just wastes space.

Don't list gear tables twice. The cyberjacks, commlinks, and cyberdecks tables are listed in two separate sections of the book.

Nice list. Only critique I have is that Impaired Attribute needing to be changed is more subjective than glaring change blindness. Don't see a reason for it to be changed as a RAW when it can be a GM discussion on what thematically fits the character.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: (11:45:22/08-18-19) »
Uhm. Those all sound like errata notes and requests for clarification, not 'it's obvious for people with previous-edition experiences that <rule x>, but it is never explicitly mentioned in 6w'. The only exception would be 'Medkits are First Aid kits', 'manual operation is a per-weapon-mount modifier'. I'll add those in later.

As for Anti-Vehicle: They cause less collateral damage and have an errataed higher Attack Rating against Vehicles. Sounds like the DV is actually intended.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #5 on: (13:35:22/08-18-19) »
Thanks but I have access to an error list already, it's the change blindness mistakes I want to gather, not all the errors where I have no idea what things should be.
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Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: (14:45:37/08-18-19) »
In this edition you don't seem to need a magic rating to pick qualities such as Mentor Spirit, Astral Chameleon, Astral Beacon and Spirit Bane qualities. But if this is due to change blindness or not I can't really tell since I have not been involved in the change process....

I mean there is technically nothing to prevent mundane from having the Mentor Spirit quality I guess (just that they don't benefit as much from it as an awakened character while the disadvantage would still apply) so for all I know it might be a conscious decision (but probably not).


I can list some of the things that might or might not be out of 'change blindness' and you guys can decide what you can and cannot act on without higher authority.



For commlink, number of devices you can slave is data processing (new for SR6). For rcc its device rating x 3 (like it was back in SR5)

If you read the book for the first time then its not very clear how autosofts running on drones and shared by RCC interact and/or limit each other.

p. 4 The header "Vehicle Modifications" are missing in the index. Should point to p. 200 right between "Crashing" and "Vehicle Combat" on the same page.

Some of the Archetypes does not seem to be rules legal. Also, the Technomancer doesn't have the Cracking skill... You should probably reverse engineer all of them (also list priorities used for the sample archetypes, as this is valuable information for people creating characters for the first time).

Book talk about first aid kit, but they are nowhere to be found. When talking about kit, shop and facility it seem as if we have biotech kit. This is probably a first aid kit. And if you buy supplies for your biotech kit then you probably also have a medkit. Listed cost for medkit should be "As Kit, see p. 274".

Improved Ability talk about "combat skills" (which was a thing in SR5) but book doesn't explicityly list them. Looking at SR5 I would say that they are probably:
- Athletics (Archery, Throwing weapons)
- Close Combat (Blades, Clubs, Unarmed Combat)
- Exotic Weapons
- Firearms (Automatics, Longarms, Pistols, Rifles, Shotguns)

Probe action. Extended or Threshold, can't be both.

Matrix perception p. 178 talk about "hidden". Should be "silent running"

p. 189 talk about Intuition Dice. Should be Initiative Dice.

page 36 Threshold Guidelines. Wording to specify that the threshold 5 is shooting at some kind of difficulty angle, or directly below the window else 5 sounds easier than 4. Also, shooting is an opposed test not a threshold test so the whole example should maybe be changed into something that is normally not using opposed tests.

p. 53 Dwarfs has the Latin name in purple small font below the title. Every other metatype has the Latin name in large font next to the title

p. 287 Wired Reflexes, p. 293 Synaptic Booster. It's unclear if the additional Minor Action is because of, or in addition to the Initiative Die. The german errara team said: it is supposed to only give the initiative dice and the minor actions resulting from that and no extra minor actions.

p. 205+ go through all of the professional samples. For example, combat knife is listed with DV 4P

Standard Mount vs Heavy weapons. Missing list of heavy weapons. Blindness from 5th where heavy weapons were:
- Assault Cannons
- Grenade Launchers
- Guided Missile Launchers
- Machine Guns
- Rocket Launchers.

The Mnemonic Enhancer adds its rating as a dicepool bonus to "your Knowledge...." tests.

p. 257 Panther XXL Assault cannon is listed as a machine gun.

Cyberlimbs currently cap body and reaction at 2, with no way of increasing it.

Used grade and cultured bioware.

The device ratings table from SR5 is missing (how to know what device rating of a firearm is?)

Seem as if rules for resolving jumps / leaps never made it from SR5 (but hydraulic jacks still point to them).

Ammo table is missing regular ammo

For a new reader it might be unclear that smargun system's AR increase is not included in listed weapons the same as laser sights explicitly are.

Missing the rule about used grade having higher essence cost.

p. 288 "Each cyberlimb adds one box to the character’s Physical Condition Monitor" Should be each "full limb" as in SR5.

Book doesn't state that starting essence is 6 or that max magic is 6 at character generation. or max resonance is 6 during chargen. (book also doesn't describe what happen if any of them reach zero...)

Book explicitly list the following as allowed to spend customization karma on
- skill advancement
- attribute advancement
- additional funds
- qualities
However, table on next page also list new spells, initiation, new complex forms and submerge. Not clear if you can do that during chargen as well or not. Also seems legal to buy foci during chargen, but not clear if you are allowed to spend customization karma to bind them.

Since availability is not a limiting factor unless item is illegal you can now buy foci at any force during chargen (as long as you have the resources).

p. 8 "the same A skill groups" should be "same as skill groups"
« Last Edit: (14:59:41/08-18-19) by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: (15:02:34/08-18-19) »
Body and Reaction should indeed not be cyberlimbs attributes obviously, but the clumsy phrasing implies it. Some of the other things I'll use for a 'we assume X but not certain yet' list.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #8 on: (15:30:05/08-18-19) »
Since the general public is still twiddling their thumbs waiting, all I can do is bring up semi-'change blindness' issues in 5e that never got addressed (unless they are hidden in some pending errata file somewhere) and ask that someone who can check the Core verify if they are addressed in 6th.

Datajacks:
The lore was (and may still be) that Datajacks can be installed/implanted anywhere in a body.
5e didn't call this out, and in fact the Internal Router cyberware strongly suggested that they couldn't be.  (If a Datajack in your wrist can communicate with your brain without Wireless being on, what was the purpose of the Internal router?)

Decking "offline.":
Those in positions of more authority than I insisted that Deckers were supposed to be able to hack without having a connection to the Matrix.
5e did not declare this anywhere, and in fact countered it.  Twice.  Once in Core, and once in Kill Code.
Assuming the intention is still that Deckers should be capable of hacking without a signal, is it declared in 6th?  Or, at the very least, not contradicted?

Using Sensors:
I'm not talking about combat uses (such as on missiles).  I'm talking in an 'observe your world' sense.
In 5e, using a Sensor was just a Perception Test where the user had the option to use the Sensor Rating as their limit (eliminated in 6th) and could use Electronic Warfare instead of Perception.
This was of dubious use, as my tech based characters easily outstripped Sensor Ratings out of chargen.
There also was no language indicating that the Sensors themselves really did anything, leaving it wide open for making Perception checks to detect radiation (perhaps by taste?) and radio signals (maybe by smell?) without sensors.
Is this clearer in 6th?

Xenon

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« Reply #9 on: (16:55:49/08-18-19) »
Rule wise, in SR5 datajack was headware and headware could either go into your head, taking up essence, or into a cyberlimb (not just a cyberskull), taking up capacity. In SR6 there is no mentioning if headware can go into cyberlimbs (but this might or might not have been deliberately changed since SR5).


Offline hacking was new to me. Book is pretty explicit that you need to be connected to the matrix and that matrix actions can only be taken on the matrix. If a device is wireless disabled you can hack it by connecting a wire between your deck and the device, but I always read it as if your deck would still be wireless enabled and connected to the matrix as a whole while doing this (otherwise how are you generating OS etc).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: (00:25:11/08-20-19) »
Iirc the qualities were already available in SR5, and they make sense. I added a few things to the list including the cyberlimbs thing.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #11 on: (05:18:31/08-20-19) »
Unarmed DV: Implied to be Str/2 by the Natural Weapon power, and Stun by Killing Hands adept power

Wait, a crucial part of one of the bigger points of contention regarding 6th Edition isnīt even explicitly stated, but only implied? Oh boi ::)

TBH, I get why these ommissions are likely due to change blindness. I remember that in 5th Editions Core rules, it was never explicitly stated that you go unconscious when your Stun monitor gets filled. It took years for people to realize that, even the most nitpicky rules-lawyers didnīt catch that. I guess the implication was strong enough in this case :P I guess what would have helped were real, unassisted Playtesting sessions with totally unexperienced players.

I donīt have the full 6th Editions core rules, but I suspect that many of these problems and ambiguities about Magic (and Resonance)  out are due to change blindness as well, most notably:

  • Adepts not gaining Power Points when raising their Magic with Special Attribute points (thus basically getting "dead magic" for it)
  • Adepts not losing Power Points when lowering their Magic because of Essence loss
  • Essence loss not lowering the Maximum Magic Attribute anymore
  • Full burnout (Magic down to Zero) not being permanent anymore
  • Magicians not being able to buy spells for Karma at Chargen

Just a little piece of advice that I already posted elsewhere: When you need to discuss these things with the powers that be (Jason Hardy, the fabled "original writers" of the magic section, whoever...) to get the final blessings for a reasonable errata to this mess, donīt ask them stuff like: "Hey guys, so people are wondering if Adepts still lose Power Points due to Magic loss due to Essence loss, because they still gain one when increasing their Magic attribute and this bloke in the forum pointed out that this can be abused extremely by burning out and buying back Magic cheaply, which is also a thing that some players didnīt  like back in 5th Edition, but now itīs much worse because burnout Adepts can now get even more Power Points than normal Adepts with this trick and TBH that sounds pretty cheesy may I please errata this?"

The powers that be are likely not going to understand you ("Whats do you mean, burnout Adepts? Adepts donīt have no Elemental Attacks yet" :o) or pretend that they not going to understand you or not going to answer at all or get defensive and pull out some improvised explanation about balancing or personal taste or whatever.

Start with one simple question: Are there any intended(!) fundamental changes in the way Adepts/Burning out/etc. works, compared to 5th Edition?". Insist on an answer to that precise question and put that emphasis on intended. Donīt let them slip away like "Aww wait, I donīt really remember myself, Iīll have to look that up wait a minute" and then they just cite their patchy RAW right back at you as if this solves the problem. Because honestly, I wouldnīt be too surprised if the answer to that question is simply "No." and they just dropped the ball on editing and proofreading here.

(OK, TBH I really donīt know how well communications with TPtb work for you, maybe Iīm just jaded by some of the latest discussions I witnessed in the forum and in the mood to for some salt ;D I still stand by that advice, though.)
« Last Edit: (05:31:49/08-20-19) by Finstersang »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: (05:37:26/08-20-19) »
For #3 and #4, I actually suspect these are intended since SR4->SR5 just copy-paste-adjusted the section, and the Magic-part of Essence description is rather similar in phrasing. Might be why they missed Resonance, if that was unintended.

Anyway, I'm not Errata Team so all I can do is compile a list for forum usage, not communicate with JM Hardy. :-\
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penllawen

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« Reply #13 on: (05:40:28/08-20-19) »
TBH, I get why these ommissions are likely due to change blindness. I remember that in 5th Editions Core rules, it was never explicitly stated that you go unconscious when your Stun monitor gets filled. It took years for people to realize that, even the most nitpicky rules-lawyers didnīt catch that.
Huh. Coming from 2e, with my own change blindness, I didn't notice that at all. And actually, if you didn't know different, a totally reasonable counter-interpretation would be "filling up your Stun monitor gives you -3/-4/whatever penalty" and not realising it's supposed to knock the character out.

Finstersang

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« Reply #14 on: (09:33:02/08-20-19) »
For #3 and #4, I actually suspect these are intended since SR4->SR5 just copy-paste-adjusted the section, and the Magic-part of Essence description is rather similar in phrasing. Might be why they missed Resonance, if that was unintended.

Anyway, I'm not Errata Team so all I can do is compile a list for forum usage, not communicate with JM Hardy. :-\

Sorry, somehow thought you were involved with the Errata team. Anyways, thanks for the effort  ;D