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[6WE] Edwin the Exotic Weapons Specialist

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Hobbes

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« Reply #45 on: (11:29:13/08-23-19) »
Right so instead of Impaired Attribute it becomes an Addiction to Cigs, or an Allergy to Platinum or whatever.

Banning / Removing options isn't going to get the result you want, just changes what the "optimal" picks are.  More character options allow for more valid character concepts, which is good. 

And Cheap Munchkin Trickery is Badwrongfunning folks who enjoy that aspect of the game, please refrain from name calling, thanks. 

Still limited to six overall Qualities.  Still limited to 20 Bonus Karma for other character stuffs.  An Extra Positive Quality that comes up periodically isn't unbalancing or egregious.  And in general nerfing/banning "The Best" option just becomes a game of Whack-a-Mole as something else just becomes "The Best". 

It's usually best practice to put hard limits on the outcomes (which they have in this case, six qualities, 20 bonus Karma), rather than trying to "out rules lawyer" the player base.  That's a fairly pointless activity. 

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #46 on: (11:41:52/08-23-19) »
And things like addiction get you like 5 points unless you take it to a level where it actually impairs you. There is a difference between a 5 point negative quality not impairing you and a 56 point negative quality not impairing you.

dezmont

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« Reply #47 on: (13:30:47/08-23-19) »
Lets not call it Munchkin Trickery because that is some pretty charged language that conceals the insidious design of such a quality.

Again, people who take the quality are not playing a trick. They aren't mixing stuff in bad faith or using a move or ability in a manner that creates a negative play experience.

They are just taking a quality and using it straight up how it was designed to be use. Therr isn't anything nefarious about what the PLAYER is doing.

99% of the people who take this are thinking 'oh hey, my character is weak, lets put 3 points in strength for this because that is what it represents' and move on. Even if you knowingly use this that doesn't make you a munchkin, it makes you a powergamer or optimizer, which is a neutral term, not a negative one. Munchkins are jerks who try to make the game about themselves, it isn't inherently wrong to just enjoy tuning an RPG character like they are the engine of a supercar as long as you don't then drive em like a drekhead.

Mechanical optimization is not your enemy as a GM. This quality, in the grand scheme, isn't a big deal, because it isn't going to break any game and merely just exists as a sore spot of bad design that the SR community is sorta intolerant of because of the game's history. That isn't to say the negative reaction is an over reaction because SR's negative quality design philosophy has been bad for like 4 editions now well before the license even changed, and its ok to sorta be fed up with it, but my literal point was "Hey man it isn't the player's fault the design is so bad that doing something 'honestly' is sorta a system exploit." Like if a system exploit is so baked into the system the average first time user will exploit it by accident without even realizing it, it isn't an exploit. This isn't quickening, it won't melt your campaign despite having no design virtue to improve the actual game.

And, honestly, if I had the choice between making this not exist and making addiction cigs cost 20, or this existing as is, I would take the former. Addiction cigs tells you something interesting about the character and leads to cool scenes even if it doesn't ultimately matter. Part of my point of 'You don't really need to make a disadvantage feel 'worth the points'' is that you create highly defensive behavior. Like I know GMs who would make the mistake of trying to get that 5 point disadvantage to result in some social kerfuffle as you offend someone important or whatever but in reality even a 20 point disadvantage is merely intended to add texture to your character, not actually cause serious ongoing problems.
« Last Edit: (13:38:09/08-23-19) by dezmont »

markelphoenix

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« Reply #48 on: (17:39:01/08-23-19) »
Lets not call it Munchkin Trickery because that is some pretty charged language that conceals the insidious design of such a quality.

Again, people who take the quality are not playing a trick. They aren't mixing stuff in bad faith or using a move or ability in a manner that creates a negative play experience.

They are just taking a quality and using it straight up how it was designed to be use. Therr isn't anything nefarious about what the PLAYER is doing.

99% of the people who take this are thinking 'oh hey, my character is weak, lets put 3 points in strength for this because that is what it represents' and move on. Even if you knowingly use this that doesn't make you a munchkin, it makes you a powergamer or optimizer, which is a neutral term, not a negative one. Munchkins are jerks who try to make the game about themselves, it isn't inherently wrong to just enjoy tuning an RPG character like they are the engine of a supercar as long as you don't then drive em like a drekhead.

Mechanical optimization is not your enemy as a GM. This quality, in the grand scheme, isn't a big deal, because it isn't going to break any game and merely just exists as a sore spot of bad design that the SR community is sorta intolerant of because of the game's history. That isn't to say the negative reaction is an over reaction because SR's negative quality design philosophy has been bad for like 4 editions now well before the license even changed, and its ok to sorta be fed up with it, but my literal point was "Hey man it isn't the player's fault the design is so bad that doing something 'honestly' is sorta a system exploit." Like if a system exploit is so baked into the system the average first time user will exploit it by accident without even realizing it, it isn't an exploit. This isn't quickening, it won't melt your campaign despite having no design virtue to improve the actual game.

And, honestly, if I had the choice between making this not exist and making addiction cigs cost 20, or this existing as is, I would take the former. Addiction cigs tells you something interesting about the character and leads to cool scenes even if it doesn't ultimately matter. Part of my point of 'You don't really need to make a disadvantage feel 'worth the points'' is that you create highly defensive behavior. Like I know GMs who would make the mistake of trying to get that 5 point disadvantage to result in some social kerfuffle as you offend someone important or whatever but in reality even a 20 point disadvantage is merely intended to add texture to your character, not actually cause serious ongoing problems.

You get it. Is nice to read. People seem to forget that this is a pen and paper game and not a pvp mmo.

penllawen

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« Reply #49 on: (08:25:00/08-25-19) »
And Cheap Munchkin Trickery is Badwrongfunning folks who enjoy that aspect of the game, please refrain from name calling, thanks. 
Lets not call it Munchkin Trickery because that is some pretty charged language that conceals the insidious design of such a quality.
You're both right and I apologise. I didn't mean to use such a charged term. I'd kinda forgotten it has such heavy negative connotations, honestly, but that's on me.

Quote
Mechanical optimization is not your enemy as a GM.
Again, yes. Thank you.

I'm a little twitchy around this stuff (unfairly so) due to some tricky balance issues in previous games where the table had a mix of optimisers and non-optimisers and it caused a bit of friction. My game groups have almost always consisted of existing friends, so there was no easy out of moving people around between games to match them up with similar folks. But that doesn't mean I have to be a dick about it.