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[6WE] Decker prototype character

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« on: (10:52:21/08-17-19) »
So far the 6th world edition builds I've seen have been a soak tank and a cyber-adept. 

I'm offering something else: a proof of concept as to whether conventional wisdom is right about "anything other that Attributes A is a trap".  (also making the character a human, so no help from metahuman priority!) So... here we go!

Priority array: Metatype (Human): D (4SAP), Attribute C: (12), Skills A (32), Magic: E, Resources B (275,000)

Attributes (before customization karma)
Body 2, Agility 1, Reaction 1, Strength 1, Willpower 3, Logic 6, Intuition 5, Charisma 1, Edge 5

Skills (before customization karma)
Biotech (First Aid) 3, Cracking (Cybercombat) 6, Electronics (Matrix Perception) 5, Engineering (Lockpicking) 4, Firearms (Light Pistols) 4, Perception 3, Stealth 2

Qualities Selected: Analytical Mind (even though I'm trying to not cheese... this is too good to not take), Hardening / Glass Jaw, Impaired Body 2

Augmentations:
Cyberjack Rating 4, Used (7/6 DF)
Implanted Cyberdeck
          - MCT 360 Cyberdeck (6/5 AS)
Cybereyes Rating 3, Used
          - Flare Comp, Low Light, Smartlink, Vision Enhancement
Synthetic Cyberarm, Used
          - Agility 6, Strength 3, Armor 2
Cerebral Booster Rating 2

Customization karma (43 karma available after selecting qualities):
Agility and Charisma each raised from 1 to 2
Close Combat and Influence skills each bought at 1
Photographic Memory quality added

Final attributes and skills:
Body 2, Agility 2, Reaction 1, Strength 1, Willpower 3, Logic 6 (8 ), Intuition 5, Edge 5, Essence 1.57
Biotech (First Aid) 3, Close Combat 1, Cracking (Cybercombat) 6, Electronics (Matrix Perception) 5, Engineering (Lockpicking) 4, Firearms (Light Pistols) 4, Influence 1, Perception 3, Stealth 2

26,250 nuyen left over for buying Fake SIN, Lifestyle, Vehicle, Gun, Armor, Tool Kits, and assorted tools.

All in all, despite making some decidedly non-optimal choices (could have another 30k or so for resources if I just took used Cerebral Boosters) I think the character is quite viable.  Even with Attributes C.  Heck, this guy is about the next best thing to an Edgelord. (gain edge every time you roll logic!  gain ANOTHER edge very time you make a memory test! gain edge every time you do something in hotsim!)
« Last Edit: (10:57:14/08-17-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #1 on: (14:39:02/08-17-19) »
Conceptually speaking, how does one acquire used *cultured* bioware?  It's grown custom for each user. For that matter how does one acquire used bone augmentation?  Full skeletal replacement? 


Hobbes

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« Reply #2 on: (15:44:03/08-17-19) »
Conceptually speaking, how does one acquire used *cultured* bioware?  It's grown custom for each user. For that matter how does one acquire used bone augmentation?  Full skeletal replacement?

Lower quality materials.
A type O base with just the bare minimum of "your" DNA used. 
Cut rate Street Doc. 
Older model that isn't as good as the off the shelf new stuff. 
Had a bad reaction. 
You had a twin, or a clone, or something.

Hobbes

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« Reply #3 on: (15:51:33/08-17-19) »
On topic.  Atrocious Sneak and social skill pools.  Arguably the Max Agility on the Cyberarm is 5, but you may know better than me there  :P

If you're a stay in the van Hotsim kind of Decker you're golden.  Get a decent drone down the line for Analytical Mind Edge Gunnery Shenanigans, and you're all set.  Getting out of the Van is going to be rough.

Typhus

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« Reply #4 on: (16:55:20/08-17-19) »
"Lower quality materials." - That's not used, that's 'crappy'.
"A type O base with just the bare minimum of "your" DNA used. " - also 'crappy'
"Cut rate Street Doc."- also not "used"
"Older model that isn't as good as the off the shelf new stuff." Not possible with cultured bioware.
"Had a bad reaction." - to the essence piece I guess?
"You had a twin, or a clone, or something." - Again, how do you strip out things like bone augmentation though?  Maybe the transformative and augmentive nanites/whatever raw bio-materials have been used before and thus are less effective?

I'm not really looking for a justification for the stats, more for how in the world such a thing is even conceptually functional.  "Trade Essence for nuyen" is all well and good, I guess, but the narrative for cultured clashes badly with the idea of "used" as written.  Rename it, then maybe.  Call it "Z-Grade" or something.  Then your ideas fit it nicely.  "Used" seems the wrong term for bioware though if it's going to follow that logic.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: (17:27:32/08-17-19) »
Used Bioware is totally a thing.  A gross thing, granted.

And yes, cultured used bioware is a headscratcher.  That's why I just didn't use it.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #6 on: (21:48:35/08-17-19) »
"Lower quality materials." - That's not used, that's 'crappy'.
"A type O base with just the bare minimum of "your" DNA used. " - also 'crappy'
"Cut rate Street Doc."- also not "used"
"Older model that isn't as good as the off the shelf new stuff." Not possible with cultured bioware.
"Had a bad reaction." - to the essence piece I guess?
"You had a twin, or a clone, or something." - Again, how do you strip out things like bone augmentation though?  Maybe the transformative and augmentive nanites/whatever raw bio-materials have been used before and thus are less effective?

I'm not really looking for a justification for the stats, more for how in the world such a thing is even conceptually functional.  "Trade Essence for nuyen" is all well and good, I guess, but the narrative for cultured clashes badly with the idea of "used" as written.  Rename it, then maybe.  Call it "Z-Grade" or something.  Then your ideas fit it nicely.  "Used" seems the wrong term for bioware though if it's going to follow that logic.

In previous editions it was called Omega Grade.

And fluffing "Used" as simply "Crappy" isn't really all that much of a stretch. 

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #7 on: (22:02:45/08-17-19) »
On topic.  Atrocious Sneak and social skill pools.  Arguably the Max Agility on the Cyberarm is 5, but you may know better than me there  :P

If you're a stay in the van Hotsim kind of Decker you're golden.  Get a decent drone down the line for Analytical Mind Edge Gunnery Shenanigans, and you're all set.  Getting out of the Van is going to be rough.

Well, yes social skill pools are atrocious, but I put a bare minimum in there to ensure that if FORCED to assist the face, at least it's 3 dice instead of 2 for the lower glitch odds.
As for Sneaking... yeah that's something that's more likely for a non-specialist to be forced to test.  Again enough dice to to hopefully not glitch, but my thinking is if this character were to be asked to roll sneaking that's what Edge is for.  He gets it back fast enough for a Pre-edge to add 5 dice and the Rule of Six... so long as a series of Sneaking tests aren't called for. (at least in-between viable, edge-gaining matrix actions at least...)

And as for secret knowledge... no I'm not building with any of that in mind.  What's wrong with 6 Agility on the Cyberarm? 2 Natural + Augmented limit?


As for Used Cerebral Boosters... yeah it feels a bit "off" since that wasn't possible in 5e, but I agree with you that there's not necessarily any reason it can't be a thing.  Poorly grown or poorly implanted bioware, even if designed for your DNA sequence, can still logically be a thing. Maybe it's not technically used by another host, but the result can be the same thing and for simplicity's sake the grade bears the same name.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: (08:43:52/08-18-19) »
Used custom Bioware was perfectly RAW in 5e as well.  Caused the exact same discussions.

Missed the Karma bump to Agility 2 on the Cyberarm.  I honestly have no idea if the +4 Augmentation max counts off the Cyberarm stats or the characters Meat stats.  I could argue either side of that one.

And Chameleon Suit would probably be the Armor of Choice to help with Sneak tests.  But 4 dice will be rough even with Edge. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: (08:54:44/08-18-19) »
I'd go with that augmented max of cyberlimbs comes from Meat stats. Otherwise cyberlimbs could literally not go past 6.
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markelphoenix

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« Reply #10 on: (10:21:12/08-18-19) »
Anyone want to recreate this with Attributes at A and do a comparison of dice pools?

Hobbes

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« Reply #11 on: (11:34:49/08-18-19) »
Sure, slapped together AR Decker.

Metatype   D   4 - Ork
Attributes   A   24
Skills   C   20
Magic   E   Mundane
Resources   B   275,000

S      2      
A      5   (9)
R      3   (5)
B      3      
I      5      
L      6   (9)
C      5      
W      3      

Magic 0
Essence 1.06
Edge 5

Skills:
Stealth (Sneak) 1
Con (Fast Talk) 1
Athletics (Climbing) 1
Cracking (Hacking) 6
Electronics (Matrix Perception) 5
Firearms (Automatics) 5
Engineering   4
Perception   (Visual) 1
Biotech   1
Influence   1

Qualities
In Debit 2
Alergy Gold (Rare, Moderate)
Analytical mind
Impared Str 2

Augment   Rating
Used Wired Reflexes   2
Used Muscle Toner   4
Used Cerebral Boosters   3
Used Cyber Jack   1
Data Jack   

Gear:
Erika Cyberdeck   
52,5000 Nuyen.

Karma spent:
Stealth   5
Con      5
Athletics   5   
Perception   5
Biotech   5
Influence   5
Specializations      
Automatics   5
Fast talk      5
Hacking      5
Matrix Perception   5
Visual      5
Climbing      5
Sneaking      5
Nuyen       2
Bonus Karma from Qualities      -17

Total 50

Lower ASDF due to the Muscle Toner and Wired Reflexes.  Similar Decking Dice pools though.  Went with 5 Edge to keep the comparison similar.

Few dice pools are better, few are worse.  The AR Decker with Higher Attributes is better suited to going along with the team at the cost of some ASDF.  You could certainly drop the Wired Reflexes and Muscle Toner and pick up more ASDF.  You could also completely drop the Cyberjack for a Commlink if you're willing to risk it, but then you lose out on the Signal Scream Matrix Edge Action.

Or just play a Burn-out Technomancer and ignore the Cyberdeck/Cyberjack stuffs.  Which is my recommendation from a purely Mechanical standpoint.   

markelphoenix

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« Reply #12 on: (11:54:05/08-18-19) »
Sure, slapped together AR Decker.

Metatype   D   4 - Ork
Attributes   A   24
Skills   C   20
Magic   E   Mundane
Resources   B   275,000

S      2      
A      5   (9)
R      3   (5)
B      3      
I      5      
L      6   (9)
C      5      
W      3      

Magic 0
Essence 1.06
Edge 5

Skills:
Stealth (Sneak) 1
Con (Fast Talk) 1
Athletics (Climbing) 1
Cracking (Hacking) 6
Electronics (Matrix Perception) 5
Firearms (Automatics) 5
Engineering   4
Perception   (Visual) 1
Biotech   1
Influence   1

Qualities
In Debit 2
Alergy Gold (Rare, Moderate)
Analytical mind
Impared Str 2

Augment   Rating
Used Wired Reflexes   2
Used Muscle Toner   4
Used Cerebral Boosters   3
Used Cyber Jack   1
Data Jack   

Gear:
Erika Cyberdeck   
52,5000 Nuyen.

Karma spent:
Stealth   5
Con      5
Athletics   5   
Perception   5
Biotech   5
Influence   5
Specializations      
Automatics   5
Fast talk      5
Hacking      5
Matrix Perception   5
Visual      5
Climbing      5
Sneaking      5
Nuyen       2
Bonus Karma from Qualities      -17

Total 50

Lower ASDF due to the Muscle Toner and Wired Reflexes.  Similar Decking Dice pools though.  Went with 5 Edge to keep the comparison similar.

Few dice pools are better, few are worse.  The AR Decker with Higher Attributes is better suited to going along with the team at the cost of some ASDF.  You could certainly drop the Wired Reflexes and Muscle Toner and pick up more ASDF.  You could also completely drop the Cyberjack for a Commlink if you're willing to risk it, but then you lose out on the Signal Scream Matrix Edge Action.

Or just play a Burn-out Technomancer and ignore the Cyberdeck/Cyberjack stuffs.  Which is my recommendation from a purely Mechanical standpoint.   

Thanks, Hobbes!

The main advantage I see to this build is in play progression. Spending Karma vs Nuyen. Where the low Attribute build would have to spend significant Karma to up his Attributes, this one is largely Nuyen bound, looking for opportunity to upgrade his Cyberjack and Cyberdeck. Given the 'suggested training times' as well, I would still err on the side of the Attribute build over the other....

Not sure how I feel about this. Not sure I like Attribute A being a pretty clear winner in most cases gels with me. Especially when you consider an Awakened character. Mage choosing Attribute A is gutting their starting spells, given how they currently treat spells at chargen. Add to that that Mages are VERY karma heavy vs other archetypes that get more short term bang for their buck from Nuyen rewards (cyber, bio, weapons, etc.) Granted, mages still have Foci to spend on (which also require karma), lodges, etc. Difference being, when a mage spends their big money, it is usually on something that also requires them to use Karma to make it work.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: (18:35:53/08-18-19) »
It's an interesting comparison. If it were true apples to apples and using the same Used R3 or Standard R2 Cerebral Booster, decking dice pools would be identical.

The peripheral skill pools are larger, which is to be somewhat expected by swapping Attributes and Skill priorities. It's harder to compare these as the same resources priority was spent in a completely different way, however.  Still, a point of difference from the 5e balance between Attributes and Skills is it no longer matters which side of the equation is stacked low.  High Attribute + Low skill now costs the same karma to advance post chargen as Low Attribute + High skill. And while certain skills are more or less mandatory for all shadowrunners, not every shadowrunner needs to be great at them.  For example: Sneaking.  One thing I learned PDQ in organized play as a Covert Ops specialist is that Sneaking feels like the most useless specialization ever, since Invisibility and/or Concealment means everyone can do it anyway.

But given the very different way resources were spent... the difference between hacking capabilities is in edge generation. Honestly I might have gone overboard on it, given the cap of 2 per round is a thing... a more optimized approach would perhaps be to pick different qualities or to re-spend resources on cheaper ASDF stats.  OTOH I haven't really gamed out hacking a host in 6WE, so I'm not sure how much higher ASDF stats would be missed if they were dropped.

TL;DR:  I think that yes if you want an Action Jackson character of any sort (an AR decker vs a VR decker) the Attribute Priority is more important than the Skills Priority.  However, if you're building someone who doesn't need to shine in physical action and you only need 2 or 3 attributes to do the breadth of primary and secondary things you want to do, you don't NEED high attributes.
« Last Edit: (18:53:59/08-18-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #14 on: (19:43:36/08-18-19) »
Its certainly a playstyle difference mainly.  Although the AR / High Stats version can simply choose to hang out in the Van, whereas the VR / Low Stats version could struggle a bit if forced to run around with the team.  Which is as expected. 

Near as I can tell ASDF is mostly for those crazy Matrix Dog Fights that never happened in 5th because it was basically a loosing proposition for the Player.  Looks to be the same in 6th, but I can't say for sure.  At some point in time I really should play the game   :P

And IMO, without Direct Access and with re-roll failures being 4 Edge I think Rating 5 or maybe 6 Hosts are a hard stop for most players.  Just call that plan C for when Plan A and B are totally FUBAR'd.  Too many opposed tests of similar dice pools with less of a safety net, unless the GM lets the Hacker abuse Analytical Mind to keep the Edge Pool topped off.  5th Edition an optimized Decker could handle a rating 7 Host if they could find Direct Access and didn't need to accomplish multiple tasks.  In, out, maybe spend some Edge, but done.  Looks significantly less feasible in 6th.  Again, really should play the game someday.