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[6e] Training and Attribute Increases

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #15 on: (11:12:21/08-12-19) »
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period.  So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.

Thatís similar to what Iíve suggested but just donít be explicit about the training. Jut assume people are training a bit in their downtime, whatever there style of training is and when they spend the karma they probably spent enough time while they were earning it to justify the increase.

 Basically donít  have training times at all as you assume runners whose lives depend on their skills arenít just getting fat eating Cheetos in their downtime. That the training is happening and the time it takes to train is roughly equivalent to how fast they earn karma. If they go on more runs per month that just means on the job training is more effective.

FastJack

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« Reply #16 on: (11:21:05/08-12-19) »
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.

Lormyr

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« Reply #17 on: (12:43:31/08-12-19) »
]ACTUAL example:

From the start, I know I want to raise my Body and Strength from 4 to 5. I start training from the very start. After 10 runs and 10 months, I have earned 53 karma and pay off my training for 50 karma, boosting my Body and Strength to 5 each and leaving 3 Karma that I put into a Knowledge Skill I trained in the last month.

I find the wording too unspecific to share your certainty that interpretation is accurate, but if you are correct, it will help the matter significantly.

Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.

That would have also been a good rule, rather than the no rule but suggestion we have.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #18 on: (20:02:18/08-12-19) »
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.

Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.

Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?

I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: (00:30:11/08-13-19) »
A minute of fighting at most vs dedicated training? Eh it won't interrupt your training regime but unless you're on the streets every day I doubt it replaces the need to train.

Mind you, 'these are the times between increases but actual training is 1 downtime and we ignore the rest' also works. But it makes sense that training is required.
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FastJack

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« Reply #20 on: (08:21:43/08-13-19) »
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.

Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.

Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?

I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build. I think the suggestion is pretty realistic, but I also don't like it because of that fact and I don't want my street sam to be a gym rat just to stay in shape for 'running (unless, of course, that works for their story. ;) )

markelphoenix

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« Reply #21 on: (08:36:45/08-13-19) »
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.

Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.

Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?

I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build. I think the suggestion is pretty realistic, but I also don't like it because of that fact and I don't want my street sam to be a gym rat just to stay in shape for 'running (unless, of course, that works for their story. ;) )

Few hours a day is reasonable, because you can alternate muscle groups. (i.e. leg day). There is no benefit to not letting a muscle group repair from a heavy work out, though, because it is that rest period that allows repair and growth, assuming proper nutrients.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #22 on: (09:07:18/08-13-19) »
Don't forget that the "day" for training is four hours, one of three allotments so that you can train on up to three things at once. If you want to focus on just raising strength from 4 to 5, I'd allow (at my table) that you could use all three allotments on just getting "swol". So it would cut it down from 10 months to 3.33 months, as long as your training your Strength 12 hours a day.

Which also kind of creates a dissonance. Strength training, 12 hours a day, would actually be counter productive. There are particular times where you need to let the muscles rest. To dedicate 12 hours a day to it borders on the absurd from a returns standpoint.

Much bigger fan of the "On the Job Training" aspect. You're telling me that field experience, where you are having to stretch your limits, use your skills and live or die scenarios, is less training than going to a Gym or a class?

I find their training time suggestions way out of whack, and I am glad they explicitly listed them as suggestions instead of hard line RAW.
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build. I think the suggestion is pretty realistic, but I also don't like it because of that fact and I don't want my street sam to be a gym rat just to stay in shape for 'running (unless, of course, that works for their story. ;) )

Few hours a day is reasonable, because you can alternate muscle groups. (i.e. leg day). There is no benefit to not letting a muscle group repair from a heavy work out, though, because it is that rest period that allows repair and growth, assuming proper nutrients.

if we are talking daily more than a hour is probably not happening. And daily actually probably isnt. When I buffed up I went 40 minutes to an hour 4 days a week. I went from in shadowrun terms probably a 2 str/agility to a 4/3 in maybe 2 months tops.(by SR5 lift rules I was 6/6 bod/str but those rules are laughable) I never got past that because Iím a middle aged fat man just trying to get into shape not a young athletic person trying
To hit peak performance.

Lormyr

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« Reply #23 on: (09:51:20/08-13-19) »
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build.

This. It's an hour and 20 minutes a day for me, 6 days a week, and that is just the strength training.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #24 on: (10:06:25/08-13-19) »
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period.  So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.

Thatís similar to what Iíve suggested but just donít be explicit about the training. Jut assume people are training a bit in their downtime, whatever there style of training is and when they spend the karma they probably spent enough time while they were earning it to justify the increase.

 Basically donít  have training times at all as you assume runners whose lives depend on their skills arenít just getting fat eating Cheetos in their downtime. That the training is happening and the time it takes to train is roughly equivalent to how fast they earn karma. If they go on more runs per month that just means on the job training is more effective.

 This isnít a more common thing in games? I always thought it was kind of assumed that your characters were practicing their skills in their downtime barring  extenuating circumstances. I always saw training times in all games more as a limit the GMís could use when characters wanted to raise skills or attributes up several points in rapid succession.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #25 on: (10:09:16/08-13-19) »
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period.  So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.

Thatís similar to what Iíve suggested but just donít be explicit about the training. Jut assume people are training a bit in their downtime, whatever there style of training is and when they spend the karma they probably spent enough time while they were earning it to justify the increase.

 Basically donít  have training times at all as you assume runners whose lives depend on their skills arenít just getting fat eating Cheetos in their downtime. That the training is happening and the time it takes to train is roughly equivalent to how fast they earn karma. If they go on more runs per month that just means on the job training is more effective.

 This isnít a more common thing in games? I always thought it was kind of assumed that your characters were practicing their skills in their downtime barring  extenuating circumstances. I always saw training times in all games more as a limit the GMís could use when characters wanted to raise skills or attributes up several points in rapid succession.

Until this thread I thought it was the norm as well.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #26 on: (10:25:58/08-13-19) »
Most guys I know that are "swol" (god, I hate that word), are going to the gym every day for a few hours to just maintain their build.

This. It's an hour and 20 minutes a day for me, 6 days a week, and that is just the strength training.

Thatís a lot. Most people i see doing strength training if itís intensive stop around an hour. Your profile pic though is pretty damn buff so you take it more seriously than a lot of people and I ever did.

My routine before I wrecked my back was I rotated through 3 similar sets did 2-5 minutes of intense cardio to keep my heart rate up did another 3 sets until I had 3x3 then Iíd switch muscle groups a bit for another 3x3. I wasnít heavy lifting though so itís a different strain. Usually took me on hour if I was lazy and dropped a set or two 40 minutes.

How I wrecked my back is I went too long.  A leg day I did one more set of 3 which I handled. I went to the leg press for a final set but put the weights lite as a cool down set only 500 pounds. I accordioned like 3 into it. 500 pounds was way under my normal press thatís close to what I was squatting but muscle fatigue kicked in and my legs just gave out. Itís why I donít think anyone seriously goes 4 hours they may be at the gym 4 hours but there are probably a ton of breaks.

penllawen

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« Reply #27 on: (13:29:06/08-13-19) »
From the start, I know I want to raise my Body and Strength from 4 to 5. I start training from the very start. After 10 runs and 10 months, I have earned 53 karma and pay off my training for 50 karma, boosting my Body and Strength to 5 each and leaving 3 Karma that I put into a Knowledge Skill I trained in the last month.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #28 on: (16:46:50/08-13-19) »
Thatís a lot. Most people i see doing strength training if itís intensive stop around an hour. Your profile pic though is pretty damn buff so you take it more seriously than a lot of people and I ever did.

My routine before I wrecked my back was I rotated through 3 similar sets did 2-5 minutes of intense cardio to keep my heart rate up did another 3 sets until I had 3x3 then Iíd switch muscle groups a bit for another 3x3. I wasnít heavy lifting though so itís a different strain. Usually took me on hour if I was lazy and dropped a set or two 40 minutes.

How I wrecked my back is I went too long.  A leg day I did one more set of 3 which I handled. I went to the leg press for a final set but put the weights lite as a cool down set only 500 pounds. I accordioned like 3 into it. 500 pounds was way under my normal press thatís close to what I was squatting but muscle fatigue kicked in and my legs just gave out. Itís why I donít think anyone seriously goes 4 hours they may be at the gym 4 hours but there are probably a ton of breaks.

I've been obsessed with being physically powerful since I was a teenager, and then I was a prize fighter for nearly a decade, so it's just ingrained at this point. I'll be lifting til I die.

That sucks bro. Lesser scale for me, but I know how it goes. Torn rotator cuff is what knocked me out of prize fighting. Damn thing never healed right.

The thing that a lot of people who don't strength train do not know is that once you stop, as long as you remain somewhat active and eat right, you don't usually lose a lot of mass or the look (outside of bodybuilder level of training), but your actual power diminishes rapidly.

Typhus

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« Reply #29 on: (18:48:10/08-13-19) »
Yeah, if I ever ran this edition (big if), I would have to tell players to ignore those times straight away (among other things). 

I would maybe limit them to one expenditure between sessions, if I limit them at all.  I've always just allowed downtime advancement between runs.  And initiation taking months?  No way ever.  I used to just fold in ordeals to the runs themselves.  Like have a crazy but enlightening magical threat they face so that the player can get the Karma discount, and skip the side quest rolls to get the benefit.  Other than having to learn/buy spells as a Wizard in D&D, I can't think of the last game I played where downtime taxes were even used, much less so crazy high as this one.  It's just not a thing any more.

Plus with the extremely stingy suggested rewards, players would almost never advance.  No fun to be had there.  Spend what you have.

Should seriously be reconsidered as a negative impact to player perception, even if stated as "optional".  There's better things to spend the character count on.  Like all the clarifications and missing rules for one.  Save training times for a splatbook.