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[6e] Training and Attribute Increases

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markelphoenix

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« on: (21:56:05/08-11-19) »
So, heard from some podcasts that training a skill takes (1 Month)xRating? Is this accurate? Is this same with Attributes, including magic?

Is there anyway to mitigate this or speed this up, such as traits, special training, etc? What kind of commitment is this to the runner, do they just have to effectively do nothing but train for those months, or is this something that can be done along other things during down time. Also, can they train multiple things at once?

Seems very....restrictive, imo.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #1 on: (22:03:29/08-11-19) »
There is a table that has about how long it would take to learn skills/attributes, but these are simple suggestions for if a GM wishes to figure training times (probably for multi-rank increases between runs). The only thing I've seen have a hard learning time is spells, which take a little over a week depending on the study roll.

KatoHearts

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« Reply #2 on: (22:05:42/08-11-19) »
The training times given in the book are suggestions, they're all awful suggestions but you can ignore them without issue. On to your questions, it's (new rank) months and (new rank x 2) months respectively. Someone can use the Instruction skill on you to speed things along by one day per net hit or they could if there was a threshold/opposed test for them to get net hits on.
« Last Edit: (22:10:39/08-11-19) by KatoHearts »

markelphoenix

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« Reply #3 on: (22:50:05/08-11-19) »
The training times given in the book are suggestions, they're all awful suggestions but you can ignore them without issue. On to your questions, it's (new rank) months and (new rank x 2) months respectively. Someone can use the Instruction skill on you to speed things along by one day per net hit or they could if there was a threshold/opposed test for them to get net hits on.

I feel like that's another quirk of the book. Bad suggested guidelines of way too long, a way to speed it up by using an Instructor to reduce it, then to provide nothing to oppose the Instructors roles to actually do the reduction of the poorly suggested optional time to train.....yeah....

Anyways, if there isn't an opposed roll listed under Instruction skill, I would just rule it as hits instead of net-hits, given that there is nothing to 'net' against :-p

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: (00:34:26/08-12-19) »
I'd let Instruction cut off a percentage instead.

The suggested learning times also explain they assume 4h/day training and that with 12h per day resting and living, you can do 3 simultaneous trainings at a time. For a long campaign with max 10 karma a month they work out.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #5 on: (00:47:47/08-12-19) »
Step one. Ignore everything there except the part that says itís suggested times. Step 2 go with rankxweeks on the long side, Iíd go with rankxdays if I even used training times. Rank and 2 times rank for attributes is so bad I donít have words to describe it.

10 months later after 10-20 runs maybe 10-40 sessions after you forgot you even spent the points to increase your agility to 5 you finally gain a point of agility. Any training time that takes more than the next session to acquire is just terrible.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #6 on: (08:15:59/08-12-19) »
Step one. Ignore everything there except the part that says itís suggested times. Step 2 go with rankxweeks on the long side, Iíd go with rankxdays if I even used training times. Rank and 2 times rank for attributes is so bad I donít have words to describe it.

10 months later after 10-20 runs maybe 10-40 sessions after you forgot you even spent the points to increase your agility to 5 you finally gain a point of agility. Any training time that takes more than the next session to acquire is just terrible.

I am kind of with you on this one, unless the goal of the suggestion is to strongly encourage Instructors and make them more valuable + encourage longer downtime between runs?

I wonder if the scenario of people never coming up against their Lifestyle costs due to not having a good reason to do down time other than healing is the impetus for this?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: (08:51:15/08-12-19) »
I think the training times are relatively realistic, which many here seem to like given the debates about SR6, but it's rather in discord with the flashier style. I'd probably consider 'going to the gym' to already qualify for training all physical attributes at the same time, and if I play a short campaign decrease the training times.

For longer campaigns, the times make a lot of sense. Like I mentioned: If you earn 10 karma per month and are constantly training, you'll still end up short on karma. But people want instant gratification, so then spending a year on training your Agility from 5 to 6 is a hard sell, even though it takes them half a year just to earn the karma for it.

Another thing the training times balance out: Magic monkeys. No more 'let's put all my karma into Magic', because you'd earn it faster than you can spend it, so people are encouraged to spread out more.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #8 on: (09:59:23/08-12-19) »
I think the training times are relatively realistic

Realistic, sure. Perhaps even generous in some cases, in terms of realism. Who wants to spend their karma for an increase and then have to wait potentially 10* or more game sessions before they actually get to use it, though? That's not fun at all.

*: This figure based upon consideration that one run per month seems pretty average.

which many here seem to like given the debates about SR6

Where are these many again? I surely missed them if they were on the forums. The "many" I saw generally voiced against the new times.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: (10:12:15/08-12-19) »
Then pay the karma afterwards.

As for those "many": I mean the repeated complaints about the new Armor system due to being unrealistic.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #10 on: (10:53:43/08-12-19) »
Then pay the karma afterwards.

That does literally nothing to address the issue though. Example:

My goal is to get swol, bro! Taking that Body from 5 to 6. Just completed my 5th run, and have the 30 karma needed to do so. I can A or B.

A: Spend my 30 karma now. Wait 12 game sessions before I get to use Attribute increase.

B: Wait 12 game sessions. Spend that 30 karma, that wasn't going anywhere else anyways, because I needed it for this increase.

Either way you are still waiting 11 game sessions for that upgrade you were able to afford 12 sessions ago. That is ludicrous and entirely unfun. Yes, 5e had a wait to, but waiting 1 session vs. 11 is an incredible gap.

As for those "many": I mean the repeated complaints about the new Armor system due to being unrealistic.

I personally think that is an enormous false equivalency. The training times are realistic and logical, but unfun and do not flow well with the anticipated flow of game in terms of how shadowrunners live their lives. The armor issue is unrealistic, illogical, unfun, and does not flow well with the expectation of what should happen when an individual dons gear designed to protect them from gunfire.

Not all folks can articulate their position well, and not all folks can understand anything past the literal words someone invokes. Armor system being "unrealistic" is a good, simplified way of explaining the feelings of the "many" who've criticized it, but it may not capture the exact nuances of why it is actually poorly designed.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #11 on: (10:59:19/08-12-19) »
Then pay the karma afterwards.

That does literally nothing to address the issue though. Example:

My goal is to get swol, bro! Taking that Body from 5 to 6. Just completed my 5th run, and have the 30 karma needed to do so. I can A or B.

A: Spend my 30 karma now. Wait 12 game sessions before I get to use Attribute increase.

B: Wait 12 game sessions. Spend that 30 karma, that wasn't going anywhere else anyways, because I needed it for this increase.

Either way you are still waiting 11 game sessions for that upgrade you were able to afford 12 sessions ago. That is ludicrous and entirely unfun. Yes, 5e had a wait to, but waiting 1 session vs. 11 is an incredible gap.
ACTUAL example:

From the start, I know I want to raise my Body and Strength from 4 to 5. I start training from the very start. After 10 runs and 10 months, I have earned 53 karma and pay off my training for 50 karma, boosting my Body and Strength to 5 each and leaving 3 Karma that I put into a Knowledge Skill I trained in the last month.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #12 on: (11:02:39/08-12-19) »
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period.  So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
« Last Edit: (11:04:25/08-12-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #13 on: (11:05:27/08-12-19) »
Iím not sure Iíd even call them realistic. I got strength gains going to the gym far far faster than months of daily training. I think getting to peak human would be lengthy and likely impossible for many but anything less than peak is actually a fast gain. Skills for example you should probably be able to train from 0 to 6 all 6 points in total in a 5-6 months. Getting past standard professional to expert is where you actually have to put effort and time in. But a scaling system where it suddenly jumps in time and difficulty to learn at arbitrary levels with some people just being incapable of reaching the peak would be a pain in the ass and not very fun.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: (11:10:46/08-12-19) »
The system appears to be agnostic as to whether you need to have the karma on hand at the beginning or at the conclusion of a training period.  So, yeah potentially you can start training for something that takes many months and costs a huge amount of karma that you don't yet have... so long as you periodically go on Shadowruns during those months to build up the karma by the time it's over you spend your karma and you're good.
Mind you, it's still suggestions and they make very clear you should go ahead and tweak it to fit your campaign.

For a long campaign, with intended duration 20+ sessions, I'd probably follow these, maybe have an instructor at most half the time. But that's a personal preference, and is based on the lack of interest in a Magic-monkey and not something I'd follow in a short campaign (if I play 30 Nights, the training time will be 1 downtime instead). People should feel free to do what fits their table.
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