NEWS

[SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts

  • 77 Replies
  • 1735 Views

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2247
« Reply #30 on: (15:20:36/08-07-19) »

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also donīt get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 430
« Reply #31 on: (15:57:30/08-07-19) »

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also donīt get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

2 skill points worth of Karma???

We are talking about an Adept that starts with Magic 2 and is able to reach an amount of 7(!) Power Points from there (whithout Initiation, Foci or anything like that) for as low as 50 Karma, PLUS 5 Essence worth of augmentations on top. The trick goes like this:
1. Start at 2 Magic (and 2 P.P.)
2. Get 1 Essence worth of Augmentations. You are now at 1 Magic, but stay at 2 P.P.
3. Raise Magic with 10 Karma. You go back to 2 Magic but get one P.P. for a total of 3 P.P.
4. Repeat until your Karma/Essence/Money runs out.
(5. Offer your GM the soul of your firstborn so that (s)he actually accepts this as RAI)

Forget the balancing of priorities for a second and look at this. This is what I (and Xenon et al.) are talking about. The burnout-buyback trick was already in 5th Edition, but now, youīd also get additional P.P. out of it. Are we really on the same page here? Because you keep talking about characters that are "made in good faith", while this trick is more of a character advancement issue. 

If NO:

Phew. I was really getting worried here  ::)

If YES (O boi...):

Apart from the fact that GenCon was only 4 days ago and only a very fraction of the players already even had the sessions needed to earn the Karma and Money (itīs not much, but the investment is there) to get this cheesewheel spinning: Do you really, positively think that someone would try to pull this off in good faith? 
« Last Edit: (16:01:01/08-07-19) by Finstersang »
SR5 SR6 Summoners in a Nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Argle Bargle, Foofaraw, Hey Diddy Ho Diddy

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2139
« Reply #32 on: (16:32:49/08-07-19) »
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

sn0mm1s

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 246
« Reply #33 on: (17:05:28/08-07-19) »

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also donīt get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

2 skill points worth of Karma???

We are talking about an Adept that starts with Magic 2 and is able to reach an amount of 7(!) Power Points from there (whithout Initiation, Foci or anything like that) for as low as 50 Karma, PLUS 5 Essence worth of augmentations on top. The trick goes like this:
1. Start at 2 Magic (and 2 P.P.)
2. Get 1 Essence worth of Augmentations. You are now at 1 Magic, but stay at 2 P.P.
3. Raise Magic with 10 Karma. You go back to 2 Magic but get one P.P. for a total of 3 P.P.
4. Repeat until your Karma/Essence/Money runs out.
(5. Offer your GM the soul of your firstborn so that (s)he actually accepts this as RAI)

Forget the balancing of priorities for a second and look at this. This is what I (and Xenon et al.) are talking about. The burnout-buyback trick was already in 5th Edition, but now, youīd also get additional P.P. out of it. Are we really on the same page here? Because you keep talking about characters that are "made in good faith", while this trick is more of a character advancement issue. 

If NO:

Phew. I was really getting worried here  ::)

If YES (O boi...):

Apart from the fact that GenCon was only 4 days ago and only a very fraction of the players already even had the sessions needed to earn the Karma and Money (itīs not much, but the investment is there) to get this cheesewheel spinning: Do you really, positively think that someone would try to pull this off in good faith?

I would try to pull it off if RAI also mean that raising Magic in chargen doesn't give an Adept PP. I was giving this edition the benefit of the doubt in regard to Edge and whatnot - but this chargen stuff sounds broken and ill thought out.

Typhus

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 170
« Reply #34 on: (17:27:19/08-07-19) »
Quote
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

I agree.  It's possibly one of the worst iterations of it I've seen.  First time it can result in unplayable character builds.  The adjustment points idea was perhaps worth exploring, but doesn't land well at all.  It's more complicated than before to no good result.  I kinda wish my Atts E thread was still around.  Having now seen the character creation process and details, I totally reject several of the arguments made in favor of it being viable.  I've found numerous archetypes that would be unplayable if they were to use it.  First time there's ever been that type of option on the chart. None of the other E choices create that result either.  It's just the Atts column.  D is no winner either, but I could probably make it work with Karma. Maybe.  It wouldn't seem like a very rewarding character I expect.  The Power Point discussion has been most illuminating as it fundamentally changes building Adepts from any prior edition, and to no good end there either. 

New players would probably have the hardest time trying to build with it.  I foresee a lot of false starts due to the separate attribute pool resources.

And no, I don't mean to start a new discussion about Atts E.  I'm not going to be playing 6E, so I don't have anything to resolve there.  I just wanted to give some feedback about the priority system and chargen in general.  Count me in with the "boo" crowd.  I'm done now.

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 430
« Reply #35 on: (17:52:49/08-07-19) »

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also donīt get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

2 skill points worth of Karma???

We are talking about an Adept that starts with Magic 2 and is able to reach an amount of 7(!) Power Points from there (whithout Initiation, Foci or anything like that) for as low as 50 Karma, PLUS 5 Essence worth of augmentations on top. The trick goes like this:
1. Start at 2 Magic (and 2 P.P.)
2. Get 1 Essence worth of Augmentations. You are now at 1 Magic, but stay at 2 P.P.
3. Raise Magic with 10 Karma. You go back to 2 Magic but get one P.P. for a total of 3 P.P.
4. Repeat until your Karma/Essence/Money runs out.
(5. Offer your GM the soul of your firstborn so that (s)he actually accepts this as RAI)

Forget the balancing of priorities for a second and look at this. This is what I (and Xenon et al.) are talking about. The burnout-buyback trick was already in 5th Edition, but now, youīd also get additional P.P. out of it. Are we really on the same page here? Because you keep talking about characters that are "made in good faith", while this trick is more of a character advancement issue. 

If NO:

Phew. I was really getting worried here  ::)

If YES (O boi...):

Apart from the fact that GenCon was only 4 days ago and only a very fraction of the players already even had the sessions needed to earn the Karma and Money (itīs not much, but the investment is there) to get this cheesewheel spinning: Do you really, positively think that someone would try to pull this off in good faith?

I would try to pull it off if RAI also mean that raising Magic in chargen doesn't give an Adept PP. I was giving this edition the benefit of the doubt in regard to Edge and whatnot - but this chargen stuff sounds broken and ill thought out.

That may or may not be the case.

But again, my main point is not about char generation, itīs about this even more insane trick during character progression that adepts could theoretically pull off by RAW because someone forgot (?) to mention that they also lose Power Points when losing Magic because of Augmentations. Compared to this, the chargen thing is harmless. This trick basically turns burning out - which has always been a tradeoff between magical powers and augmentation - in a discount system for even more Adept Powers.

At least for Cheesy McRuleslawyer of the noble house of Whydidweinvitethisguyagain.

If he has blackmail on the GM.
SR5 SR6 Summoners in a Nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

Argle Bargle, Foofaraw, Hey Diddy Ho Diddy

curiousNormie

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 5
« Reply #36 on: (18:15:34/08-07-19) »
Imma just say this whole thread is proof nobody actually knows what CGL's RAI is for anything in 6e

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 8298
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #37 on: (18:18:44/08-07-19) »
'For anything' is rather an exaggeration, but there's unclarities with some of the new nerfs that we can't settle without going through writers and the full process. We're all working hard on that though.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5019
« Reply #38 on: (19:52:49/08-07-19) »
I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you only get between 1 and 4 power points depending on if you prioritize Magic or Resonance between D and A. That you can at most walk out of chargen with 4 power points.

That the intent is that during chargen the number of free power points for Physcial Adepts or free spells for Full Magicians or Aspected Magicians or a combination of the two for Mystic Adepts are linked to your unadjustment magic rating - the Magic in the Priority table, not as altered with any points, Karma, or any other adjustments (and that the only thing that 'any other adjustments' in this case can be, as far as I can tell, is when augmentations cause loss of essence which in turn might adjust your magic rating).

I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you cannot go Magic or Resonance D for 1 Magic and Metatype C for 9 adjustment points and then use 5 of them to get Magic 6 and that this automatically turn into a total of 6 power points (this would basically be SR5 rules, but where metatype now suddenly give you twice as many special attribute points).


Beyond that I think that "SR6 p. 156 Power Points" is in need of errata.

Book also need to clarify what you can and cannot do if your current magic rating ever reach 0.

And while at it, the book should probably also mention that everyone start out with 6 essence.... and maybe also mention if anything bad will happen if Essence ever reach zero (the only related i can find is: Essence Drain power on SR6 p. 224 mention that if the target character's Essence is drained to 0, the character dies).

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2247
« Reply #39 on: (22:22:37/08-07-19) »

Beyond that I think that "SR6 p. 156 Power Points" is in need of errata.

Book also need to clarify what you can and cannot do if your current magic rating ever reach 0.


+1 to the whole post, but this right here is the key bits.  If the RAI is total Burnout is just a story thing, go ahead and bounce off 0 Magic a few times.  Or is it still like previous editions where you hit 0 and don't bounce back.  Seriously I couldn't find a reference, would love one.

sn0mm1s

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 246
« Reply #40 on: (22:45:12/08-07-19) »
I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you only get between 1 and 4 power points depending on if you prioritize Magic or Resonance between D and A. That you can at most walk out of chargen with 4 power points.

That the intent is that during chargen the number of free power points for Physcial Adepts or free spells for Full Magicians or Aspected Magicians or a combination of the two for Mystic Adepts are linked to your unadjustment magic rating - the Magic in the Priority table, not as altered with any points, Karma, or any other adjustments (and that the only thing that 'any other adjustments' in this case can be, as far as I can tell, is when augmentations cause loss of essence which in turn might adjust your magic rating).

I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you cannot go Magic or Resonance D for 1 Magic and Metatype C for 9 adjustment points and then use 5 of them to get Magic 6 and that this automatically turn into a total of 6 power points (this would basically be SR5 rules, but where metatype now suddenly give you twice as many special attribute points).


Beyond that I think that "SR6 p. 156 Power Points" is in need of errata.

Book also need to clarify what you can and cannot do if your current magic rating ever reach 0.

And while at it, the book should probably also mention that everyone start out with 6 essence.... and maybe also mention if anything bad will happen if Essence ever reach zero (the only related i can find is: Essence Drain power on SR6 p. 224 mention that if the target character's Essence is drained to 0, the character dies).

I don't get it... are PP way better than previous editions in regards cost for adept powers? Spending Priority A on 4!?!? PP for an adept seems like an extraordinarily stupid thing to do. Are the costs the same for a mystic adept? Why would anyone ever choose an adept over a mystic adept when the cost, from what I can tell, is exactly the same for the same # of PP?

Typhus

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 170
« Reply #41 on: (23:48:09/08-07-19) »
Some PP costs are way down, like Increased Reflexes.  Getting 5d6 is relatively cheap.

Edit: Which now I think more about it, might explain the reason for the limit of 4 PP to start.  Not realizing the 4 point cap, I made a 6 point adept.  I thought he felt a little too buff to start. 
« Last Edit: (00:00:42/08-08-19) by Typhus »

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5019
« Reply #42 on: (07:18:17/08-08-19) »
Why would anyone ever choose an adept over a mystic adept when the cost, from what I can tell, is exactly the same for the same # of PP?
Out of chargen a physical adept will potentially have the exact same amount of power points as a mystic adept that focus 100% on the adept side rather than the mystic side.

The only advantage a physical adept have over a mystic adept that is 100% focusing on the adept side rather than the mystic side is that post chargen a physical adept get a free power point each time they increase their magic (as well as when they pick power point during initiation) while mystic adept don't (and can only ever gain power points via initiation).

As written this also mean that a physical adept is also much better suited to get augmentations than a mystic adept.

So the choice between a physical adept and a mystic adept basically boils down to be between "easier to get extra power points + easier to get augmentations" and "access to spells/summons". It seems pretty balanced to me.



Out of chargen a full magician will potentially have the exact same amount of spells and rituals as a mystic adept that focus 100% on the mystic side rather than the adept side. The only difference is that a full magician get astral perception for free (something a mystic adept can get by spending 1 power point, which during chargen is the equivalent of 2 spells or rituals) and also have the ability to use astral projection (something that a mystic adept can never get).

Post chargen the full magician does not have any advantages over the mystic adept except that a full magician still get astral perception for free (something a mystic adept can get by spending an initiation, which post chargen is worth one metamagic) and also have the ability to use astral projection (something that a mystic adept can never get).

So the choice between a full magician and a mystic adept basically boils down to be between "free astral perception and access to astral projection" and "access to power points". Depending on how creative you are allowed to be with astral projection this might or might not be balanced.



Out of chargen an aspected magician that only focus on sorcery will have 2 additional spells or rituals and +1 magic rating compared to a full magician that only focus on sorcery. If both of them aim for magic 6 the +1 magic point is basically worth the same as +1 adjustment point.

Post chargen an aspected sorcerer don't have any advantages over a full magician that only focus on sorcery except the fixed two free spells and rituals and original +1 magic rating/adjustment point. This is worth perhaps 20-55 karma depending on your metatype and where you placed the extra adjustment point. While the full magician always have the option to give up sorcery karma for summoning and enchanting.

So the choose between an aspected sorcerer and a full magician basically boils down to "20-55 karma advantage out of chargen" and "access to conjuring and enchanting". Short term I could see some use for an aspected sorcerer, but it will depend heavy on just how useful spirits are in this edition.



Out of chargen an aspected conjurer or enchanter only get +1 magic rating/adjustment point (which is worth 10-45 karma depending on your metatype and where you place the point, no matter what Magic or Resonance priority you pick - you should probably never pick more than D in this case) while a full magician that only focus on conjuring or enchanting still get 2 spells or rituals per Magic or Resonance priority (which is worth 10 karma per priority, if the magician ever decide to invest into Sorcery).

Since aspected conjurer or enchanter only gain +1 adjustment point per rank of Magic or Resonance priority (which is less than the +3 to +5 adjustment points per rank of Metatype priority) aspected magicians doesn't really benefit at all and a Full magician would probably almost always the better option here...
« Last Edit: (07:55:14/08-08-19) by Xenon »

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
« Reply #43 on: (11:47:04/08-08-19) »
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

It really is a cluster fuck in terms of being balanced against itself.

I am not opposed to the thought of all your magic stuff coming only from your priority selection, but if they wanted to do that then A should have gotten you the full 6. B 4, C 3, D 2, something along those lines.

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2139
« Reply #44 on: (11:59:45/08-08-19) »
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

It really is a cluster fuck in terms of being balanced against itself.

I am not opposed to the thought of all your magic stuff coming only from your priority selection, but if they wanted to do that then A should have gotten you the full 6. B 4, C 3, D 2, something along those lines.

For adepts at least. The main reason I go for 6 magic as a mage is the dice pool. For adepts it’s the power points. I can easily swing a mage with 2 spells at the start. Because hobbies I focus more on summoning. 3 runs in and I have enough spells for a bit so I can easily initiate after that then pick a few more spells etc. adepts there is no reason to improve your magic rating if you don’t get power points. It’s a waste of ink to even say that you can from your metahuman special points.