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[SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts

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Hobbes

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« Reply #15 on: (13:33:30/08-06-19) »
Sure about that? Because a lot of people seem to think that burning out is already a pretty powerfull option for adepts - especially because of the "get ware, drop to 1, then raise Magic cheaply with Karma"-cheese.

Spellcasting and Summoning are far and away the most powerful PC abilities in Shadowrun.  Things that buff non-Mages are fine, IMO.  YMMV.

Xenon

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« Reply #16 on: (13:36:46/08-06-19) »
Oh....... might have found an issue:


In this edition, how are Physical Adepts supposed to Initiate??


6WE p. 167 Initiation
To start initiation, make a [highest Magic skill] + Magic (desired Initiate Grade) Extended test, with an interval of one month and spend (10 + desired Initiate Grade) Karma.

What Magic skill would that be? ;-)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #17 on: (13:40:23/08-06-19) »
Oh....... might have found an issue:


In this edition, how are Physical Adepts supposed to Initiate??


6WE p. 167 Initiation
To start initiation, make a [highest Magic skill] + Magic (desired Initiate Grade) Extended test, with an interval of one month and spend (10 + desired Initiate Grade) Karma.

What Magic skill would that be? ;-)

Well, it doesn't say "Skill with Magic as a linked attribute", so it means for Adepts the same thing it means for any other magician? A skill you use your Magic with... obviously Close Combat in a lot of Adepts' cases...
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Hobbes

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« Reply #18 on: (15:02:55/08-06-19) »
Oh....... might have found an issue:


In this edition, how are Physical Adepts supposed to Initiate??


6WE p. 167 Initiation
To start initiation, make a [highest Magic skill] + Magic (desired Initiate Grade) Extended test, with an interval of one month and spend (10 + desired Initiate Grade) Karma.

What Magic skill would that be? ;-)

Assensing?  Magic skill any Adept should be able to take.   SSDR's ruling would be better though.  But Assensing should be universally accessible to anyone with a Magic Attribute IIRC.

Typhus

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« Reply #19 on: (16:54:31/08-06-19) »
Quote
Well, it doesn't say "Skill with Magic as a linked attribute", so it means for Adepts the same thing it means for any other magician? A skill you use your Magic with... obviously Close Combat in a lot of Adepts' cases...

Yeah, I am terrible with staying quiet as I see these, apparently.  I've written too many instruction docs in my day, I guess.

I would only intuit your interpretation because I am an old school player familiar with old write ups of initiation which allowed you make physical tests as an adept as part of an ordeal though (in fact I mentally assumed this much after the first time I read it).  However, to someone without that, this reads like "skill linked with Magic attribute" (particularly given the capitalization), and is immediately made confusing by the absence of any roll by Adepts that uses the Magic attribute.  Or it suggests that there is an unspoken classification of Magical Skills not mentioned in the book, which there of course is not, though there was in 5E, which probably explains the origin of the formula as written, I assume.

Lastly, it also breaks some of the formatting conventions elsewhere in the book in how it uses the brackets.  In this case, by trying to use the convention for that formula, it actually harder to understand what it means, due to the brevity of text between the brackets. 

A clearer presentation would be: 

To start an initiation, select your highest ranked skill you use for tests with magical abilities (if you are an adept or mystic adept, you may use your highest ranked physical skill instead), and make an Extended test using [Skill] + Magic (Desired Grade, 1 month).  Once you are successful, you spend Karma equal to (10 + desired Initiate Grade).

It's clearer, accurate, and also not a run-on sentence. 

I have to stop there, or I'll be standing on more toes than I may be already.  Cheers.

Xenon

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« Reply #20 on: (18:24:46/08-06-19) »
A clearer presentation would be: 

To start an initiation, select your highest ranked skill you use for tests with magical abilities (if you are an adept or mystic adept, you may use your highest ranked physical skill instead), and make an Extended test using [Skill] + Magic (Desired Grade, 1 month).  Once you are successful, you spend Karma equal to (10 + desired Initiate Grade).

It's clearer, accurate, and also not a run-on sentence. 
+1


Assensing? 
In SR5 you had a group of Magical Skills and for Initiation you used 'Arcana'.

In SR6 you have Sorcery, Conjuring and Enchanting (which a Physical Adept is not eligible).

You also have the Astral skill (which is used for Assensing as you talked about, as well as Astral Combat skill and a few other things). I guess this could be used, but in order to be allowed to take Astral you first need to have Astral Perception, and since Physical Adepts only start with 1-4 Power Points they would have to dedicate 25%-100% of their entire power point pool.... :-/


Well, it doesn't say "Skill with Magic as a linked attribute", so it means for Adepts the same thing it means for any other magician? A skill you use your Magic with... obviously Close Combat in a lot of Adepts' cases...
I like this. Will roll with this.

However, if this was the original intent they could have been a tad bit more clear about it. To be honest, I don't think they thought about Physical Adepts when they wrote this.

(Initiation for Physical Adepts is probably a candidate for an official clarification/errata)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: (18:32:58/08-06-19) »
There's indeed some holes, and it's unknown what caused them: Is it change-blindness, deliberate change, something else? I know my preferences but for now all I can do is ask around and hope Power Points gets clarified/errataed soon.
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Typhus

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« Reply #22 on: (18:59:39/08-06-19) »
As an older school player I don't see anything that would prevent me from defaulting to the older rules of 1:1 at all times.  Is there any other rule that specifically contradicts it? 

Finstersang

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« Reply #23 on: (05:50:51/08-07-19) »
As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.
I agree.


If you break it down, the rules for power points in 6we are actually very simple;

    1. At chargen you always only get power point(s) from your Magic or Resonance priority (minimum 1 point at priority D and maximum 4 points at priority A).

    2. After chargen you always only get a power point when you either increase your current magic with karma (max magic is always equal to 6 + initiation grade).

    3. or if you select a power point during initiation (max initiation grade is always equal to your current magic).

That's it really. Nothing else beyond the three rules above seem to add or remove power points.

Agreed.  And I actually like that it's that simple and think it should stay that simple.  YMMV.

Are you serious or did you just overread the "remove" part?

The main advantage Adepts have from Magic is the fact that they get power points from it. Thereīs only a handfull of other perks that use Magic. If an Adept actually (Iīm still pretty sure that this is not RAI. But hey, itīs CGL...) can lose magic due to Essence loss without losing power points as well, then thereīs literally no drawback for adepts getting augments and burning out.

And if you interpret the RAW in a really, really, really cheesy way, just like Xenon demonstrated in the beginning, then burning out can even leave the Adept in a better spot than before PP-wise, because heīd still get a power point for raising his Magic Attribute - which he could do a lot cheaper after lowering it by losing Essence(1). Theoretically, an Adept could start with Magic 2 (and 2 PP), get 1 Essence worth of Augments to drop to Magic 1, then buy back the lost point of Magic for as cheap as 10 Karma and repeat this process until his Karma or Essence runs out. For as cheap as 50 Karma, youīd have a Adept thatīs augmented to the gills with Magic 2 and 7 PP - more than an unaugmented Adept could have without Initiation. I mean, I hope we can at least agree that this is not intended? Right? RIGHT?!?

So, you like it simple, Hobbes? How about this:

Phsyical Adepts HAVE(2) an amount of Power Points equal to their Magic Attribute. This means that when they (permanently) raise their Magic Attribute, they raise the amount of Power Points, and when they lower their Magic Attribute (primarily due to essence loss), they lose Power Points. They can get additional Power Points by Initiating and chosing the corresponding Metamagic Technique.


(1) And that part alone is bad enough! Itīs the reason why Burnout Adepts where so cheesy in 5th Edition. IMO Essence loss should provide a constant reduction of the current Magic rating instead of lowering once it so it can be cheaply bought back with Karma. I.e. when I have Magic 4 and drop to 1 Magic because of 3 Essence worth of Augmentations, raising that Magic Attribute back to 2 should not cost 10 Karma, but the 25 thatīs needed to raise Magic 4 to Magic 5. AFAIK, thatīs how it worked in 4th Edition. Tough times for burnouts. Just as it should be.

(2) Note: I deliberately avoided the word GET here. Nothing that can cause (malicious) confusion for the grognards, rules-lawyers and cheeselords on when it "triggers".
« Last Edit: (07:45:33/08-07-19) by Finstersang »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #24 on: (07:43:37/08-07-19) »

And if you interpret the RAW in a really, really, really cheesy way, just like Xenon demonstrated in the beginning, then burning out can even leave the Adept in a better spot than before PP-wise, because heīd still get a power point for raising his Magic Attribute - which he could do a lot cheaper after lowering it by losing Essence(1). Theoretically, an Adept could start with Magic 2 (and 2 PP), get 1 Essence worth of Augments to drop to Magic 1, then buy back the lost point of Magic for as cheap as 10 Karma and repeat this process until his Karma or Essence runs out. For as cheap as 50 Karma, youīd have a Adept thatīs augmented to the gills with Magic 2 and 7 PP - more than an unaugmented Adept could have without Initiation. I mean, I hope we can at least agree that this is not intended? Right? RIGHT?!?


That is basically the current RAW.  I expect Errata or Missions FAQ or whatever to change it, but that is what is in the Core Book.  Thus, the discussions. 

I'm okay with it.  Its far less unbalanced than letting someone start with 2 Attribute points. 

I played Earthdawn, all the PCs were Adepts of some kind or another, it worked out.  I'm fine with a "D" priority choice unlocking the all the character advancement paths for any PCs. 

E Metatype, D Magic, and arrange A, B, and C as needed.  You've got 1 Power Point, go nuts.  You gave up 3 Adjustment Points to get it, so basically 3 Attribute points for 1 PP?  That's a significant opportunity cost. 

IMO, this lets everyone play a Burnout if they want to.  Previous editions Burnouts were mechanically fiddly critters.  6th Edition, they're mechanically simpler.  I don't expect it to stand, but it could.  The only reason to change it back to the way it was, is because that's the way it was.

It's still a character choice that many players will simply not take.  And it's not some mechanical trap to take Magic E, you're picking up something fairly significant with your "D" option. 

Finstersang

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« Reply #25 on: (07:51:11/08-07-19) »
That is basically the current RAW.  I expect Errata or Missions FAQ or whatever to change it, but that is what is in the Core Book.  Thus, the discussions. 

I'm okay with it.  Its far less unbalanced than letting someone start with 2 Attribute points.

Stares in disbelief

... Well, hereīs to hope that the errata team has a better grip on this.
« Last Edit: (07:53:46/08-07-19) by Finstersang »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #26 on: (10:54:54/08-07-19) »
Magic Priority choices gives you the least bang for the buck at chargen.  1 Attribute point, and either 2 Spells or 1 PP (or 2 Complex Forms).  Every other Priority gives you more.  It's a valid Long Term build vs. Starting power level character choice. 

I tried to break it with Priority D Adepts, couldn't, made peace with it.  Melee focused characters pick up a couple DV but lose off stats and Edge.  Hackers, Faces, and such it makes very little difference as the Adept Powers available are just Core Book, so it's basically a couple extra dice to a Skill.  Again at the cost of off stats and Edge.

Priority A Magic Adepts are spending their A.  That's huge.  B Stats, C Skills, D Resources, E Meta?  You're not burning out much anyway.  And increasing Resources is going to chew up a lot of Skill point or Attribute points.  You'd need to be happy with a very focused build.  One Punch the Troll or something.

D Magic Priority Spellcasters with two Spells are deferring Initiation and all the other magical goodies for a long time if they start with just two Spells.  And at the high end of Magic Priority Spellcasters and Summoners aren't likely coming out ahead by giving up Spellcasting and Summoning dice to pick up 'ware. 

If it changes, so be it.  If it doesn't it's really not that big of a deal.

Finstersang

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« Reply #27 on: (13:30:30/08-07-19) »
And what has this to do with Burnout Adepts being able to cheese a ridiculous amount of PP (easily more than a "pure" adept for the same Karma) out of the system because someone very likely forgot to mention in the RAW that you also lose PP when your lower your magic Attribute? Do you think this obvious loophole is justified because the new priorities is giving adepts less Magic for their investment?

Also: what you describe is mainly a problem because in the new RAW, the Special Attribute Points from the Metatype Priority can be used to increase the Magic rating, but donīt increase the number of PP when doing so for whatever reason (which would also be an extremely unintuitive change from 5th Edition. I mean, is any of this shit even intended or is this all just another case of bad / incomplete rules writing?)

Again, the first and most important question to the big brain rules writers behind this should be: Is there any (intended) change to they way Adepts get Power Points compared to 5th Edition?

Because somehow, Iīm still almost 100% sure that the answer to this question is "No, not really. Adepts have as much PP as their Magic Attribute."
« Last Edit: (13:42:05/08-07-19) by Finstersang »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #28 on: (14:09:51/08-07-19) »
And what has this to do with Burnout Adepts being able to cheese a ridiculous amount of PP (easily more than a "pure" adept for the same Karma) out of the system because someone very likely forgot to mention in the RAW that you also lose PP when your lower your magic Attribute? Do you think this obvious loophole is justified because the new priorities is giving adepts less Magic for their investment?


I believe that a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.  The particular combination of Errors that resulted in the weirdness around PP isn't some game breaking flaw.  Play around with characters and the new Priority table.  5th Edition Priority is a kind and forgiving character generation method compared to 6th. 

Physical Adepts are the long game.  Slow start, big finish.  They can increase powers three ways, increase magic, Initiate, and Foci.  2 of those 3 cost the same Burn out or not.  The Burn-out likely had to spend some Adjustment points or Karma during chargen to stay at Magic 1.  And with the lower Initiation costs in 6th the burn-out Karma advantage is only a few points over the first 50 karma and is essentially even after that.

Attributes A, Skills B, Metatype C, Magic D, Resources E is a valid character.  It's a Natural Adept with the same power point growth curve as a burn-out, but with a broader starting point because of the lower Resources priority but more skills and better off stats/edge. 

The reason to not change the RAW is that people bought the book and made characters.  And when you issue Errata that impacts char gen you break peoples characters.  That's bad. 

Letting Adepts gain PP at char gen with Magic Increases means the optimal Phys Ad is Magic D.  Weather that's good or bad is 100% Subjective. 

Adding in Burn-out Rules and Power Point loss doesn't stop players like me from creating Burn-out Adepts that are flat better than Natural Adepts.  It just means that players that don't want to deal with whatever burn out rules the Errata team adopts have a lower ceiling.  Again, good or bad, 100% subjective. 

Finstersang

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« Reply #29 on: (14:56:26/08-07-19) »
And what has this to do with Burnout Adepts being able to cheese a ridiculous amount of PP (easily more than a "pure" adept for the same Karma) out of the system because someone very likely forgot to mention in the RAW that you also lose PP when your lower your magic Attribute? Do you think this obvious loophole is justified because the new priorities is giving adepts less Magic for their investment?


I believe that a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.  The particular combination of Errors that resulted in the weirdness around PP isn't some game breaking flaw.  Play around with characters and the new Priority table.  5th Edition Priority is a kind and forgiving character generation method compared to 6th. 

Physical Adepts are the long game.  Slow start, big finish.  They can increase powers three ways, increase magic, Initiate, and Foci.  2 of those 3 cost the same Burn out or not.  The Burn-out likely had to spend some Adjustment points or Karma during chargen to stay at Magic 1.  And with the lower Initiation costs in 6th the burn-out Karma advantage is only a few points over the first 50 karma and is essentially even after that.

Attributes A, Skills B, Metatype C, Magic D, Resources E is a valid character.  It's a Natural Adept with the same power point growth curve as a burn-out, but with a broader starting point because of the lower Resources priority but more skills and better off stats/edge. 

The reason to not change the RAW is that people bought the book and made characters.  And when you issue Errata that impacts char gen you break peoples characters.  That's bad. 

Letting Adepts gain PP at char gen with Magic Increases means the optimal Phys Ad is Magic D.  Weather that's good or bad is 100% Subjective. 

Adding in Burn-out Rules and Power Point loss doesn't stop players like me from creating Burn-out Adepts that are flat better than Natural Adepts.  It just means that players that don't want to deal with whatever burn out rules the Errata team adopts have a lower ceiling.  Again, good or bad, 100% subjective.


Ok, let me get this straight:

If the RAW (or at least not the the part where Adepts now donīt lose P.P. for losing Magic due to Essence loss) does not get an Errata, then burnout adepts can get more P.P. for less Karma than a "pure Adept" by abusing an (in part, already existing) faulty interaction between Essence Loss and progressive Attribute enhancement costs.

This would make burnout Adepts - a character concept that is already considered broken by many SR players because of their high min-max potential - absolutely, ridiculously broken. Again, weīre talking about cheese like 5 worth points worth of Augments and 7 P.P. for 50 Karma and whatever the Augmentations cost are (bear in mind that itīs actually advisable to deliberately seek out cheap and invasive stuff to burn out faster if you want to exploit this properly).

And all if this is likely not originally meant to work this way and just yet another good olī rules writing/editing fuckup.

BUT all of this is not a good enough reason to issue an Errata ASAP, because:

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also donīt get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)
« Last Edit: (15:03:06/08-07-19) by Finstersang »
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