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[SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts

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Xenon

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« on: (06:12:58/08-06-19) »
This post is about Physical Adepts, the discussion about Mystical Adepts can be found here:
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29745.0



During character generation 1 point of unadjusted magic from the Magic or Resonance priority seem to give a Physical Adept 1 free Power Point.

p. 66
"Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments) that they use to purchase adept powers."

It seem as if adjusting Magic to a higher value (due to for example spending Adjustment Points or Karma on Magic) does not yield any extra Power Points (at least not during character generation). At least this seem to be the intent of the above rule.

If your essence is reduced below any whole integer then magic is also reduced. Book does not mention anything about the effects of dropping your current magic rating to zero. And it also does not say anything about reducing your maximum magic rating. That no matter how much augmentations you get you can always increase your magic rating to 6 (+  Initiation Grade) by spending Karma. It also seem as if adjusting Magic to a lower value (due to for example buying Augmentations during character generation) don't mean you lose any of your free Power Points you got from your Magic and Resonance priority selection... Interesting.



Then you have rules that seem to conflict a bit.

p. 156
"Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point".

I would assume that this does not apply during chargen. However, if this is the intent then the next sentence does a shitty job of clarifying it:

p. 156
"This means that an adept character who starts with a Magic rating of 4 also starts with 4 power points.

Are we to assume that that when they are talking about Magic rating in the quote above they are actually talking about an adept character that picked Magic or Resonance priority A (Magic 4) and did not spend any Adjustment points or Karma on Magic and also did not buy any augmentations...? (seem a bit far fetched to be honest, but not impossible I guess).


But post chargen it seems clear that whenever the physical adept raise their magic (through Karma) they gain one power point. It seem as if they can also gain a power point via initiation, which will generally be cheaper (but if they for example start with Magic rating 1 -or even zero due to augmentations- then it seem to be cheaper to get that next power point by raising magic rating with karma).


This sound as if you can potentially gain a max of 12 power points without initiation by having a Magic and Resonance magic priority during chargen in addition to a combination of alternating lowering your magic rating with augmentations and raising your magic rating with Karma post chargen.

...unless you spend karma or adjustment points on magic during chargen since this does not seem to grant you free Power Points?? If I read this correctly you should probably never, as a Physical Adept anyway, spend karma or adjustment points on magic during character generation (since this will basically just make your magic rating more expansive without giving you any power points in return).

This part feels very strange.

But the alternative is also not optimal. If we were to gain free power points during chargen whenever we spend adjustment points or karma to raise Magic then then you should probably never prioritize Magic or Resonance higher than D for a Physical Adept since you get far more adjustment points from Metatype than you get magic points from Magic or Resonance.

And there also does not seem to be any real drawbacks for a physical adept from getting augmentations (except maybe that it gets harder for magicians to cast various healing and increasing spells on you). Magic rating is not totally useless for a physical adept (there are some activated adept powers that depend on your magic rating), but it is also not used nearly as much as it is for spellslingers.

If anything, getting augmentations just to reduce your magic rating seem to make it cheaper once you plan on investing karma to get that next power point....
« Last Edit: (08:02:43/08-06-19) by Xenon »

Lormyr

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« Reply #1 on: (07:17:05/08-06-19) »
I am strongly of the opinion that attempting to limit magical resources (power points, spells, complex forms) to being determined by your priority selection alone is both silly and poor design. Not only that, but considering how easy it is to raise your magic attribute at character creation it also flies directly against the goal of making this edition simpler. It should all be based on the final magic attribute at character creation.

Xenon

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« Reply #2 on: (08:17:42/08-06-19) »
It should all be based on the final magic attribute at character creation.
As written the rules don't really match up for physical adepts. There seem to be a gap that does not feel natural to cross. It could for sure require some clarification (or even alteration).

Having said that, your suggestion would have the side effect that you would never want to prioritize Magic and Resonance higher than D as a Physcial Adept since each rank in this category is only 'worth' 1 single Power Point. If you want additional power points you would instead prioritize Metatype which by comparison give you between x3 and x5 as many points per rank....

Maybe if there was also a new rule that limited you from spending more Adjustment Points than the original attribute rating for the attribute you are adjusting.

This, together with an additional new rule that make you lose a Power Point when you lose a Magic rating would mean augmentations would 'cost' a bit more for Physical Adepts than than they currently do. Feel like you currently might as well burn out on augmentations and instead your magic rating from 0 to 1 (or perhaps from 1 to 2) the first thing you do post chargen.

....but now we are getting rather far away from the rules as they are currently written and intended to work.

Lormyr

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« Reply #3 on: (08:41:42/08-06-19) »
As written the rules don't really match up for physical adepts. There seem to be a gap that does not feel natural to cross. It could for sure require some clarification (or even alteration).

I don't think the gap can be clarified. It is a direct contradiction. They can certainly alter it, however.

Having said that, your suggestion would have the side effect that you would never want to prioritize Magic and Resonance higher than D as a Physcial Adept

I know. I also don't think that is an issue since there are already many priority selections you always/never (usually/rarely) want to make as is.

Maybe if there was also a new rule that limited you from spending more Adjustment Points than the original attribute rating for the attribute you are adjusting.

I can't even find language stating where the ranks of powers are capped, and if so, capped to what. Obviously your magic attribute as the rank cap is the assumption, but hell if I can find where it states that.

This, together with an additional new rule that make you lose a Power Point when you lose a Magic rating would mean augmentations would 'cost' a bit more for Physical Adepts than than they currently do. Feel like you currently might as well burn out on augmentations and instead your magic rating from 0 to 1 (or perhaps from 1 to 2) the first thing you do post chargen.

Absolutely agree that essence loss should equate to magic loss should equate to power point loss. I like that it doesn't currently effect resonance though.


Finstersang

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« Reply #4 on: (08:56:56/08-06-19) »
So the weird part here is that there is never any statement in the RAW on Adepts losing PP (huehuehue...) when their Magic rating gets lowered, but they still get PP whenever they raise it - which would lead to a situation where they can theoretically use the (already pretty broken) burnout/buyback interaction to cheese out an ridiculous amout of PP for minimal Karma? Correct?

Honestly, I don´t know just how bad this section is written, but if a burnout Adept player would argue for this interpretation at my table, he´d be in for some serious phonebooking. I mean, I´d never underestimate the absolute adamant determination of our most favourite line developer to make magic the absolute strongest option in the 6th world in every case. But I´m pretty sure that the RAW are just faulty/poorly phrased here. Probably because the writers assumed that this part is self-explanatory or assumed that the players know how it worked in the previous editions.

The RAI is very likely simply:
  • Adepts have have an amount of PP equal to their Magic
  • I.e.: They get PP when they raise their Magic and lose PP when they lower their Magic
  • They don´t have to pay extra Karma for it (unlike MysAds)
  • They can Initiate for more PP
« Last Edit: (09:05:28/08-06-19) by Finstersang »
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Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: (09:24:17/08-06-19) »
...burnout/buyback interaction to cheese out an ridiculous amout of PP for minimal Karma? Correct?
Well, for each power point you want in this manner you would need to see the clinic to drop you below the next integer of essence before you spend karma to again raise your magic rating. Never having more than magic rating of 1 (at least not until you finally spend >5 essence on augmentations mixed with 30+ karma on power points). After your 6 first power points they will start to cost 10+ karma (through initiation or raising magic above 1). Currently it seem to be rules legal, but it is also seem to be a lot of trouble for just a few power points.

If it was the other way around, that raising magic always gave you a free power point (even if it come from adjustment points during chargen) and that power points drop if your magic drop then you would gain your 6 power points for free directly at chargen (but in this case no augmentations) by simply picking metatype C instead of metatype D (say hello to level 4 improved reflexes).

...or still go burnout, by exiting chargen with 5+ essence worth of augmentations and begin raising your magic rating (and gaining power points) from zero with karma.


Probably because the writers assumed that this part is self-explanatory or assumed that the players know how it worked in the previous editions.
In previous edition you would also gain free power points if your magic rating is increased during chargen. In this edition you only seem to gain free power points during chargen from the Magic or Resonance priority.


The RAI is very likely...
In that case we would need an errata that correct Magic or Resonance but specifically only when it comes to Physical Adepts, not Mystic Adepts, Full Magicians nor Aspected Magicians (at p. 66)

I actually don't think that is likely. It doesn't seem as if you are supposed to lose Power Points in this edition (same as you are not supposed to lose your free Spells if your magic rating is adjusted down in case of Full/Aspected Magicians and Mystic Adepts).
« Last Edit: (09:27:36/08-06-19) by Xenon »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #6 on: (10:03:44/08-06-19) »
Man that rule seems terrible. If things like power focused adjust magic rating I’d get it if they meant that. But not points at char gen from adjustment due to racial priority. To trolls have an asterisked body when they put racial points in there, nope. So why magic.

Finstersang

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« Reply #7 on: (11:28:33/08-06-19) »
In previous edition you would also gain free power points if your magic rating is increased during chargen. In this edition you only seem to gain free power points during chargen from the Magic or Resonance priority.

From what I´ve heard, in this edition they primarily did one thing: Ramp the bad editing and rules writing up to eleven.

Until there´s an official statement that specifically spells out: "Ah yes, correct: We changed pretty much everything about how PP generation for Adepts work in a way that makes no fucking sense whatsoever LOL", I´d assume that the RAI is still just like 5th Edition and the description is just worded extremely bad (or missing key sentences because of editing fuckuppery). 

So, before you make it too hard for the big brain guys at CGL gamelabs by confusing them with conclusions drawn from the current RAW, here´s the one question that needs to be asked before anything else:

Dear CGL writers: Is there anything about Adepts, Magic and Power Points that is supposed to be fundamentally different compared to 5th Edition?

If the answer is "No" (and I highly suspect it), there´s your RAI. 
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: (11:32:11/08-06-19) »
Dear CGL writers: Is there anything about Adepts, Magic and Power Points that is supposed to be fundamentally different compared to 5th Edition?

If the answer is "No" (and I highly suspect it), there´s your RAI.

As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Finstersang

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« Reply #9 on: (11:36:59/08-06-19) »
Dear CGL writers: Is there anything about Adepts, Magic and Power Points that is supposed to be fundamentally different compared to 5th Edition?

If the answer is "No" (and I highly suspect it), there´s your RAI.

As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.

That may be the case, but that is something that has more to do with the chargen process and not with the way Magic and PP interact.

The main point of contention here is when you get or lose PP as an adept. In 5th and 4th Edition, the amount of PP a PhysAd has is almost always pretty much equal to the Magic rating. Raise your Magic, get a PP. Lose Magic because of Essence loss, and you lose PP as well (In 4th Edition, you could even temporarily lose access to some of your PP because of background count).

AFAIK, that should be the case in 6th Edition as well. But it seems like some core sentences are missing in the description.   
« Last Edit: (11:45:44/08-06-19) by Finstersang »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #10 on: (11:53:03/08-06-19) »

As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.

FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.

Clarification on Burn-out rules would be appreciated, even a casual "Max magic is unchanged by Essence loss per RAW" forum statement would be nice.  Just so we know, yes this makes burn outs easier, we're okay with that and carry on.

And did anyone find a rule explicitly reducing Magic (Resonance) to 0 means your Adept powers / spellcasting / summoning / Resonance / whatever actually stops?  I skimmed through the likely sections but couldn't find anything explicit. 

Finstersang

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« Reply #11 on: (13:10:38/08-06-19) »
Clarification on Burn-out rules would be appreciated, even a casual "Max magic is unchanged by Essence loss per RAW" forum statement would be nice.  Just so we know, yes this makes burn outs easier, we're okay with that and carry on.

Sure about that? Because a lot of people seem to think that burning out is already a pretty powerfull option for adepts - especially because of the "get ware, drop to 1, then raise Magic cheaply with Karma"-cheese.

Burning out should be a costly option, by lore and for balancing. Essence loss should reduce max Magic and the current Magic score without reducing the Advancement cost for the Magic Attribute.  And it should definitely cost you the PP from your Magic Attribute. And RAW, not even that seems to be the case.
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Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: (13:18:53/08-06-19) »
As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.
I agree.


If you break it down, the rules for power points in 6we are actually very simple;

    1. At chargen you always only get power point(s) from your Magic or Resonance priority (minimum 1 point at priority D and maximum 4 points at priority A).

    2. After chargen you always only get a power point when you either increase your current magic with karma (max magic is always equal to 6 + initiation grade).

    3. or if you select a power point during initiation (max initiation grade is always equal to your current magic).

That's it really. Nothing else beyond the three rules above seem to add or remove power points.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #13 on: (13:27:25/08-06-19) »
And that's important, as while you lose essence and therefore magic for burning out with cyberware, by RAW I don't believe adepts lose Power Points.  And it just might be entirely intended to be that way.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #14 on: (13:28:43/08-06-19) »
As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.
I agree.


If you break it down, the rules for power points in 6we are actually very simple;

    1. At chargen you always only get power point(s) from your Magic or Resonance priority (minimum 1 point at priority D and maximum 4 points at priority A).

    2. After chargen you always only get a power point when you either increase your current magic with karma (max magic is always equal to 6 + initiation grade).

    3. or if you select a power point during initiation (max initiation grade is always equal to your current magic).

That's it really. Nothing else beyond the three rules above seem to add or remove power points.

Agreed.  And I actually like that it's that simple and think it should stay that simple.  YMMV.