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[SR6] Trouble Understanding Multiple Attacks and Dual Wielding

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curiousNormie

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« on: (15:35:12/08-05-19) »
Hey chummers, I'm new to shadowrun sixth world and I am trying to build an ambidextrous gun bunny adept and need help with a few rules questions. I also plan on asking this on the official forums but reddit seems more active.

So first off trying to get all the rules for multiple actions is kind of a pain since the rules for them are spread across pages 42, 47, 109, 110, and 111. After flipping back and forth through the book a few times I think I understand how things work but wanted to check with others in the community.

By my understanding I can spend a minor action to declare Multiple Attacks as described on page 42, which allows me to attack as many targets as I have ammunition. Normally I then have to split the dice pool as evenly as possible between my targets, but by taking the Anticipation Edge Action listed on page 47 I may use my full dice pool for each attack.

My first point of confusion is just how many attacks can I make once I've done this? As I said page 42 says that I can make as many attacks as I have ammunition for, but with my trusty FN P93 Praetor submachine gun I have 50 rounds of ammunition. This rule makes it sound like I'm allowed to attack 50 times? Ordinarily I would run out of dice, but since I've used the anticipation edge action that never happens. I feel like I must be missing something.

Now on page 109 the book does list different firing modes, of which full auto is what I'm most interested in. Its described as using ten rounds, reducing my attack rating by 6, and letting me use the Multiple Attack minor action for free. Now this makes it obvious that there is a limit on bullets I can fire in a round, but how this relates to Multiple Attacks the book never makes clear. It just lists ammunition as what limits me. I think that I'm supposed to only be able to fire as many times as I fire bullets but I'm not sure since ten attacks seems almost as ridiculous as fifty. If anyone could clarify that would be great. For now I'm assuming I can only attack as many times as I have bullets fired.

Now of course the next thing I want to talk about is dual wielding. It looks like dual wielding just uses the same framework as the multiple attack action so I get to just double my number attacks possible when combined with the Anticipation edge action and firing another SMG in my off hand since it doubles the number of bullets I have available. Is my interpretation correct?

Another thing I'm confused about is am I allowed attack each target as many times as I want or only twice? The Full auto description on page 109 clearly says that the Multiple Attack action may be used to attack the same target a series of times, but the second Multiple Attack text block says I can attempt two attacks against the same target. Has anyone found a clarification one way or the other? Either way I keep the full twenty or more attacks so I'm sure I can find creative uses for them like shooting out all the lights so that I gain back some of that edge I spent.

Speaking of edge I'm also not sure how edge interacts with multiple attacks. Since it doesn't say anywhere that the multiple attacks work differently than normal attacks, I assume I compare advantage on each of the attacks I'm making and potentially gain edge for each one, up to the round limit of two. Is that correct?

Finally does anyone have a good dice roller app or a way of streamlining combat they can recommend? If I even if I'm making just twenty attacks that means I probably have to roll a total of three hundred dice, not including the oppositions defense and soak tests, which to be honest seems like too many and probably takes a really long time. Honestly most games use some sort of abstraction for full auto fire which I think is better than rolling for each and every bullet, but that's just me.

adzling

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« Reply #1 on: (16:21:16/08-05-19) »
best of luck with that

Xenon

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« Reply #2 on: (16:55:01/08-05-19) »
If you have a weapon in FA mode then you can attack up to 10 times (same or different targets) by splitting your pool up to 10 times, but this (and this is important) does not use a Multiple Attacks Simple Action (and the Anticipation Edge Action require that you spend both a Multiple Attack Minor Action and a Ranged Attack Major Action - which mean you are not eligible for that action in this case)


If you have a firearm in SA or BF mode (not SS or FA mode) then you can spend 4 Edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets without splitting the pool.

If you have two firearms (no matter firing mode) then you can spend 4 edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool for your main hand, but you still split for your off-hand  (unless you are ambidextrous)

If you have one melee weapon in one hand and a firearm (no matter firing mode) in the other then you can spend 4 edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool for your main-hand, but you still split for your off-hand (unless you are ambidextrous)

If you have two melee weapon then you can spend 4 edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool for your main-hand, but you still split for your off-hand (unless you are ambidextrous)


When attacking multiple targets you only compare your Attack Rating to the highest Defense Rating among all targets.
« Last Edit: (17:41:27/08-05-19) by Xenon »

curiousNormie

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« Reply #3 on: (17:12:39/08-05-19) »
If you have a weapon in FA mode then you can attack up to 10 times (same or different targets) by splitting your pool up to 10 times, but this (and this is important) does not use a Multiple Attacks Simple Action (and the Anticipation Edge Action require that you spend both a Multiple Attack Minor Action and a Ranged Attack Major Action - which mean you are not eligible for that action in this case)

If you have a firearm in SA or BF mode (not SS or FA mode) then you can spend 4 Edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool.

If you have two firearms (no matter firing mode) then you can spend 4 edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool for your main hand, but you still split for your off-hand  (unless you are ambidextrous)

If you have one melee weapon in one hand and a firearm (no matter firing mode) in the other then you can spend 4 edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool for your main-hand, but you still split for your off-hand (unless you are ambidextrous)

If you have two melee weapon then you can spend 4 edge, 1 Major and 1 Minor action to attack 2 different targets (or the same target twice) without splitting the pool for your main-hand, but you still split for your off-hand (unless you are ambidextrous)


When attacking multiple targets you only compare your Attack Rating to the highest Defense Rating among all targets.

Oh okay that makes sense. So I can only attack as many times as I have bullets, and I have to use the multiple attack minor action to do so, and that can be used with my full dice pool. So the max people I can attack is 8 in a turn. Thanks!

Honestly though this is worded very poorly. The fact that making multiple attacks is not the same as the Multiple Attack action is very unclear.
« Last Edit: (17:21:59/08-05-19) by curiousNormie »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: (18:22:38/08-05-19) »
Could be a bit clearer, but FA does explicitly state "This mode allows multiple attacks without using the Multiple Attack Minor Action", while Edge Actions mentions "each Edge Action mentions in parentheses what action must be taken at the same time." Based on that, Xenon's interpretation is the same conclusion I reached.

Note that under current RAW, you can't start your turn with more than 5 Minors but there's nothing explicit about when you trade your Minors for a Major (and you can in fact use a Major action outside your turn in some cases, such as Intercept), so if you have 5d6 Initiative and 6 Edge you could just go 'trade 4 Minor for a Major, use 4 Edge and 1M1m for Anticipation Attack, earn 2 Edge while doing this, repeat the Anticipation'.

Or you could attack the same 2 people 4x. 8)
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Typhus

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« Reply #5 on: (01:31:18/08-06-19) »
Quote
"This mode allows multiple attacks without using the Multiple Attack Minor Action", while Edge Actions mentions "each Edge Action mentions in parentheses what action must be taken at the same time." Based on that, Xenon's interpretation is the same conclusion I reached.

I know I high-hatted my way into the shadows elsewhere, but this one has me curious.

I disagree on this interpretation, in that there is nothing under the Multiple Attack write up on either the minor action page or the combat option page that requires you to spend a multiple attack minor action for the attack to qualify as a multiple attack.  The Minor Action enables you to make one, true.  But it is not specified as required "in all cases".

Moving on to the description on the combat option page, it states that any time you are getting more than one attack (regardless of how) you are making a Multiple Attack, and it then describes the procedure.  Nothing there requires the Minor Acton spend in all cases either.  By definition, if you attack more than one target, your attack is a Multiple Attack (proper noun).

Meanwhile, FA is exempt from that singular instance of the minor attack rule that states you must use it.  Because any time you make more than one attack it is, by definition, a Multiple Attack (proper noun) per the Combat Options text, it thus qualifies you for using Anticipation.  Edge Actions only require you to spend "an action" not a specific type of action, so that doesn't stop you either.

Edge Action are qualified by saying that they can only be spent once per Action you take.  However, no matter how many weapons you can activate, its only a Major action to do so in the case of Full Auto so two FA strikes from two different weapons is only a single Major Action to perform, (meaning Edge spends apply to all such dice rolls where they are not disallowed from doing so another way, such as the Off Hand Penalty).

So said differently, because there is no requirement for a specific action spend in the case of full auto, the limits imposed by the Minor Action type no longer apply.  Any kind of attack option that enables you to attack more than once, regardless of how you achieve it, is a Multiple Attack, qualifying you for the Anticipation Edge spend when using Full Auto.  There's no gate on this yard. 

Now let's add Dual Wielding and Ambidexterity into the mix. 

Ambidexterity "removes the penalty" for attacking off hand.  Best I can find, the only penalty is the limit on using not being able to use Edge with an off hand weapon.  Under Dual Wielding, it states you resolve dual wielding as a Multiple Attack (splitting dice pool between the two weapons).  Nothing exempts you from that specific Dual Wielding pool split, so before spending Edge, Ms. Ambidexterity McGunbunny who happens to have 20 dice in her pool would be able to make up to 10 attacks against 10 targets with each hand.  20 dice is attainable right from CharGen with the right build.

Now, since this is a singular attack action, and is a multiple attack by definition, if Ms McGunbunny has 4 Edge, she can use her FULL DICE POOL against all such targets, making this 20 attacks at 20 dice each.  No further splitting anywhere, per Anticipation and Ambidexterity.

That's 400 attack dice being rolled, followed by 20 dodge rolls, maybe 20 soak rolls also.

IF she were not Ambidexterous, and spent the Edge, she would only be able to make 10 attacks at 10 dice each with her main hand, and then would have to divvy up the remaining 10 dice against her targets from her secondary hand due to the off hand limitation.

Not that one would allow this just because RAW, but the rules do seem to as I read them.

Have I missed any other rules on any other pages? 
« Last Edit: (01:39:27/08-06-19) by Typhus »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: (01:57:16/08-06-19) »
"WHAT Action must be taken". So no, it IS a Specific action. So your entire argument falls apart.

While muddled due to the phrasing, in the end RAI seems clear here. Yes they should clarify. So let's make sure to push them on that. But I'd say the rules do explicitly prevent you from executing 20 full-dice attacks at the same time. If you don't believe that, convince your gm, you're never going to convince me. I made sure to discuss this with other agents to make sure I read it right to begin with.
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Typhus

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« Reply #7 on: (02:40:33/08-06-19) »
Quote
But I'd say the rules do explicitly prevent you from executing 20 full-dice attacks at the same time.

Still disagree due the phrasing and lack on explicit prohibition.  If I choose to pay the Multiple Attack Action Cost with a Minor Action, on an FA attack, then I'm back to 20 x 20.  "Allow" is not "can't".  It's an interpretation of a bad phrase that says I have to use a Minor Action in order to create a Multiple Attack 100% of the time.  By the Combat Option section, any attack (which is an Action) that attacks more than one target is a Multiple Attack.  How is that not the case?  Is it the case that Anticipation was not meant to apply to FA attacks? 

I'm not arguing to be able to, of course, it' pretty OP, as I think we saw in the live play.  The whole thing needs clean up, across all entries and maybe even a specific examples of how to do Dual Wielding/Ambi/FA/Whatever, because flipping between 4 pages across half the book just to get to this outcome (and then to have it be wrong) is a bigger problem than an errata team can resolve.

FWIW, I appreciate the insight into the possible RAI.  It's a pretty far reach to get there from the RAW, I think, but that's the RAW for you, I suppose.  Part of why I won't be playing it.

Carry on, chummers.  Thanks for indulging my curiousity.

curiousNormie

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« Reply #8 on: (12:36:23/08-06-19) »
in the end RAI seems clear here

As someone who tried to get an answer on this topic in multiple places I would dispute that. Pretty much every other forum and community I checked with went the opposite way. Hopefully it'll be fixed when 6e rereleases in October.

Stormrider

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« Reply #9 on: (06:13:25/08-11-19) »
There are two possibilities:
When FAs Multiple Attacks count for Anticipation: 20 attacks with 2 SMG in FA-Mode
When FAs Multiple Attacks doesn't count for Anticipation: 4 SA attacks with 2 SMG in BF-Mode or 20 attacks with 2 SMG in FA-Mode with 1/10 Pool

Since it says: "each Edge Action mentions in parentheses what action must be taken at the same time" and FA says "This mode allows multiple attacks without using the Multiple Attack Minor Action" I read it as the latter. All other actions which include a "free" action say that you must use the minor action and get ist back afterwards, but FA doesn't say that. We can argue further, if you need to take one minor action to get the off hand multiple attack and the 2 BF multiple attacks or if you need 3 minor actions for these 3 instances of multiple attacks.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: (06:55:34/08-11-19) »
We can argue further...
I honestly don't feel like there is a need for that since I am pretty confident everyone already agree that if you were allowed to hit 10 times without splitting the pool then you would pretty much break the game.

The only thing that might be under debate is if there is room to twist the words enough to make it legal under a interpretation of the rules as they are written or not - and if so, if it need a clarifying errata or not.

Stormrider

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« Reply #11 on: (07:17:06/08-11-19) »
Like I said, the RAW says, that you need an Multi Attacks !Action! thus we are at maximum 4 Attacks with full pool and the only inaccuracy is, if you need 1 or 3 minor actions for this stunt.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: (07:21:44/08-11-19) »
Anticipation is under rule clarification debate and unfortunately the exact details are under NDA. I hope clarifications will be released soon.  :-X :-\
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Stormrider

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« Reply #13 on: (07:48:34/08-11-19) »
Then let's wait for the next Errata.

Hephaestus

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« Reply #14 on: (14:19:10/08-11-19) »
Anticipation is under rule clarification debate and unfortunately the exact details are under NDA. I hope clarifications will be released soon.  :-X :-\

Since the CRB is in the public's hands (mine included), can those of you under NDAs pleeeeaaaase get CGL to officially end them. These nebulous responses are getting old, and contribute nothing to the conversation.

Not knowing if its worth it to dual wield and/or take Ambidextrous is a pretty major issue for gun bunny characters.