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SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing

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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #60 on: (12:08:22/08-07-19) »
The only rule involved in the rfid bullets, is that itís a threshold 2 to wipe them. Thatís it. Otherwise itís a small paragraph in a sidebar about yet one more way the corps try to control and own every single little thing, no matter how small or insignificant.

There is not rule in how much info it broadcasts, the signal strength, how to tell if someone is listening for it, nothing. It reads like a small fluff ammo-related fluff piece with a single stat for the inevitable question that will come up if mentioned in game.

 Also, we already had RFID tagged gear, and matrix ownership link to equipment since fourth edition. This issue isnít new, itís just showed up in a new place.
« Last Edit: (12:16:01/08-07-19) by Moonshine Fox »

jtnlange

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« Reply #61 on: (12:28:55/08-07-19) »
I'll be honest. Kinda figured that the Corps were doing this already, so not really a big deal to me. Just handwave the wiping unless there is a specific reason why it may not have happened.

Trevor L.
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #62 on: (12:31:48/08-07-19) »
All ammo on the black market would be wiped anyway. So would all gear used by shadowrunners by default (and that should be mentioned somewhere)
Itís just another reason why not to knock over arms transports.
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #63 on: (14:54:32/08-07-19) »
I question the veracity of that statement.
Why would anyone ever armor-piercing ammo that reduces DV when armor does nothing? Even if the armor piercing is a bigger number than the damage reduction, big whoop, sometimes I get edge on an attack when I wouldn't have with normal ammo. My damage went down by a significant percentage and my target's soak pool, to which that damage was balanced, hasn't gotten any smaller.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #64 on: (19:47:12/08-07-19) »
What are you saying Ghost Rigger?

Are you thinking that in a system that limits the number of Edge points gained in one round to 2, and a system that it sounds like it will be relatively easy to ensure a character gains at least 3 Edge a round (via Qualities and Gear / Augs) without counting on tactical choices, that no one would be willing to reduce their damage output just to gain another Edge point they probably can't use or keep?

Ppee-sshaaww!!!

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Hephaestus

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« Reply #65 on: (22:04:06/08-07-19) »
I just re-read that section in CRB6, and the "inventory tracking" argument is incorrect. It says the tags don't activate until fired, so they wouldn't be able to read them until they were fired. It also says it alerts the authorities, so they project their signal quite a bit.

Those things in mind, I can think of a lot of useful/infuriating things for Runners to do.
- As mentioned, spoofing the gun ownership can make it really easy to frame someone.
   - Also, stealing a group's specific ammo to attack that same group with to make it look like an inside job.
- Tracking an injured mark with your own RFID scanner.
- Spraying randomly in all directions over a large area to force "the local authorities" to have to comb over blocks and blocks of urban sprawl to figure out where all the fragging signals are coming from. Collateral damage aside, this sounds like it would also create noise issues for matrix users.
- Setting up single-shot weapons to fire on timers to make a breadcrumb trail for someone to follow.

More likely though, my group will just get out the magic marker and make the rule go away.

duckman

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« Reply #66 on: (22:22:51/08-07-19) »
The problem, Hephaestus, is that what you are saying is not accurate for what they have written or not accurate for what the words they wrote mean (i.e. they wrote something stupid).

RFID *is* always on.  What they described in the rules is not RFID in the real world or in any prior ruleset I am aware of.  I think the use of the term RFID is a poor choice here but then I would say the same thing about half the rulebook.
The tag they describe is in the shell casing (not the actual bullet) and I believe that guns were already tagged so this is only saying tagged bullets are new.  It means that you don't have a tag-round (although, again, I believe that already exists in the system).
The rules don't actually say anything about tags showing ownership (although it would be hard for me not to imagine it including that information).

What they want is a bullet that self-reports down to the CSI office/LoneStar.  That's better done by invoking other tech (like acoustics) or magic (since I can imagine a simple ritual that could be built out over time).

Your ideas are not bad ones but they are equally easy to accomplish without tagged bullets...  There are plenty of other computer tags including simply spoofing a SIN or clothing or what have you.  The tag-round already exists.  A rampaging spirit would require just as much investigation and an armed response as well.  Why write something so bad to accomplish something that could be done much more easily within the system to begin with?

BeCareful

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« Reply #67 on: (23:19:08/08-07-19) »
A thought occurs: has stealing ammo from corpsec/civilians been a major thing? Because that sounds like a thing that this would fix. My presumption was that everyone has tags in their clips/mags registered to their SINs, and that the actions to remove empty ones involved putting them back in pockets or something, so scrounging ammo off of dead people wouldn't really be necessary unless you didn't actually conserve ammo.

Also, I'm aware that caseless ammo, in real life, has problems that make them less reliable. I just figured that there was an unstated presumption that the future would have advances in them that rendered them a GM hand-wave.
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Cabral

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« Reply #68 on: (21:09:45/08-12-19) »
Your runners will just use caseless normally anyway. If you're worried about a gm pulling that move the system isn't your problem. The gm is.
Michael Chandra,
You seem to stretching to support every argument in defense of the 6e rules, at least in this thread. I have always gotten the impression of you through the forums as a level headed and even person so I hope that I am not mischaracterizing your responses.

However, I have to call out this post. If there is a piece of gear, a build option, or other decision point that everyone will choose, that points to a clear flaw in the design of the choices. This rule has no place in a core rulebook aiming to streamline the experience. At best, this belongs as an optional rule in the gun book.

I don't have the rulebook yet so I will have to rely on others to determine how likely players are to miss the rule.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #69 on: (21:36:38/08-12-19) »
Your runners will just use caseless normally anyway. If you're worried about a gm pulling that move the system isn't your problem. The gm is.
Michael Chandra,
You seem to stretching to support every argument in defense of the 6e rules, at least in this thread. I have always gotten the impression of you through the forums as a level headed and even person so I hope that I am not mischaracterizing your responses.

However, I have to call out this post. If there is a piece of gear, a build option, or other decision point that everyone will choose, that points to a clear flaw in the design of the choices. This rule has no place in a core rulebook aiming to streamline the experience. At best, this belongs as an optional rule in the gun book.

I don't have the rulebook yet so I will have to rely on others to determine how likely players are to miss the rule.

There is mention of it at the start of the Firearms section, and a small sidebar in the ammo section. The only hard rule mentioned in all of it is that erasing the micro-RFID in bullets is a 1 minute interval extended Electronics roll with a threshold of 2 per 10 rounds. All else is fluff and mentions that the RFID activates when fired and seems to either (in the sidebar) send up a ping to a local law enforcement (whatever your definition of local is), or (in the Firearms section opening) simply records location and gun information from when it was fired.

As GM you can utilize either of these options, or both, as you need/want to throw a monkey wrench into the runners careful plans or as setup to a Johnson betraying them. Something for the more Trench-coat style games were such things would be more commonplace.

skalchemist

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« Reply #70 on: (15:58:35/08-26-19) »
This is a pretty clear example the Oberoni Fallacy, or at least a variant of it I can't remember the name of.
If I only learned one thing from this thread, it was there was a name for a thing I had always known about but didn't know had a name, the "Oberoni Fallacy".  Thanks for that, Dezmont, that's a useful thing!

Basic

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« Reply #71 on: (15:57:26/08-30-19) »
Personally after reading it. I feel like this idea that Corps are using RFID's to know who is shooting at them is asking for trouble.

Guys don't erase the tags hack them and make them say someone else is shooting them maybe the cops to make them kill each other.

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Giabralter

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« Reply #72 on: (22:40:45/08-30-19) »
It almost sounds like my character's modified panther cannon. If it gets used, it dials 911. Because if I resort to using it, somebody is going to need help.  ;D

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #73 on: (16:19:53/08-31-19) »
It almost sounds like my character's modified panther cannon. If it gets used, it dials 911. Because if I resort to using it, somebody is going to need help.  ;D

Hello, DocWaggon? Yíall might want to get over here cause this guy pissed me off and then had a REALLY bad day.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #74 on: (09:03:03/09-01-19) »
Personally after reading it. I feel like this idea that Corps are using RFID's to know who is shooting at them is asking for trouble.

Guys don't erase the tags hack them and make them say someone else is shooting them maybe the cops to make them kill each other.

Remember every point of control is a point of manipulation you can employ
"Why commit a perfect crime when you could frame someone instead?" Yeah, I see no possible way this could backfire horribly.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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