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SR6e's caseless/cased ammo & RFID tracking thing

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #15 on: (13:36:18/08-05-19) »
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

Fixer hires 2 squatters and gives them basic training on a hand rfid destroyer. They sweat shop Labor it and clean 600 rounds a hour each. And thatís assuming he doesnít own some big machine that automated it or a drone with a autosoft and enough dice to buy the hits. Pick the choice that fits your dystopia.

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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #16 on: (13:50:05/08-05-19) »
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

If that is the system default, then it was a waste of word / page count even printing the rules as they are.

I think that is the real point.

penllawen

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« Reply #17 on: (14:35:22/08-05-19) »
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

If that is the system default, then it was a waste of word / page count even printing the rules as they are.

I think that is the real point.
Exactly my thinking, yes.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #18 on: (15:00:36/08-05-19) »
Iíd assume your fixer/gun dealer cleans them for you.

If that is the system default, then it was a waste of word / page count even printing the rules as they are.

I think that is the real point.

On that Iíd agree. And normally itís not a issue but if they are trying to stay under 300 pages and waste word bluntness on this and argle bargle, fo fum it is a issue.

Xenon

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« Reply #19 on: (15:04:07/08-05-19) »
Removing the tag from 10 cased bullets just require a tag eraser and an Electronics + Logic (2, 1 minute) test. As long as your team have a decker (or rigger?) then you basically just hand-wave this. Its more or less just a narrative thing rather than an actual game mechanic thing.

Also, APDS is rarely made caseless (because the sabot shells are left lying around anyway). And since APDS decrease DV (if I understand it correctly game-mechanic-wise they are now basically just Flechette+) I'm not sure it will be so useful going forward anyway...
« Last Edit: (15:48:23/08-05-19) by Xenon »

Duellist_D

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« Reply #20 on: (15:37:17/08-05-19) »
I'm honestly curious about who wrote this rule and what his/her reasoning behind it was.
Probably won't get an answer though...

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #21 on: (16:54:37/08-05-19) »
Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #22 on: (18:38:20/08-05-19) »
Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.
Exactly. Even if the GM agrees that your illegal source will wipe the tags (so they are NEVER traced back to them!), the legal bullets you encounter have this stuff! And if you just buy in a shop with a fake SIN, you're risking a paper trail unless you pay extra for caseless and have a caseless gun.

Players can go 'we'll just get caseless', or they can go 'my cop source is smart enough to wipe it so my usage doesn't get him fired' or say 'I'll go cased, but tag eraser and let the decker check if we missed anything and if so hack and format + reboot device', and honestly a GM should consider that plenty because of the following:
- The GM is the final referee, but should act wisely (p231)
- The GM should use, not abuse, authority (p231)
- The GM should establish what elements the players like and what they're comfortable with, to create a game they can enjoy (p232)

The GM is NOT the players' enemy. Any GM that disagrees with that statement needs a rather severe tongue-lashing.

But it does open up plot opportunities, so as long as the GM is fair with the players, I don't see the problem with this new system. The corps wisened up, just like they did with the Matrix, and we have to deal with them making our job harder... "For years, the streets managed to snag and use caseless rounds in order to stay clear of the law tracking them, but ..."
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Aria

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« Reply #23 on: (19:06:07/08-05-19) »
And donít get caught with erased bullets... thatís bound to be a felony! So handwaive the rules but itís another thing to consider when running through Bellevue on a fakeSIN... the black trench coat part of me thinks this sounds ok...
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #24 on: (19:45:48/08-05-19) »
And donít get caught with erased bullets... thatís bound to be a felony! So handwaive the rules but itís another thing to consider when running through Bellevue on a fakeSIN... the black trench coat part of me thinks this sounds ok...

I donít have a problem with the rule and actually like it, but with a 300 page count limit itís something Iíd of cut for a supplement. Making the core rules clearer would have been a bigger priority, fluff like this not so much. Though I think a page count limit was silly. A page count limit on the rules section and Iíd be for it. Be clear and concise enough to get the rules down to 20 pages. Hey great. Limit the history, gear, spells, powers, creatures, stories etc as well just seems stupid.

Marcus

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« Reply #25 on: (20:21:15/08-05-19) »
Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.

This holds no water. What folks object to is the bullets telling the cops when/where the shots were fired and the crime was committed.  The brand of ammo has no meaning. What your gonna say oh they were working for Ares cause they have Ares bullets? Yeah right. How many bullets you think Ares sells? Tagged bullets is just going to get you heat and make the runners look stupid. You think any professional runner is gonna be dumb enough to use bullet a Johnson gave them without tag clearing it? It's design is first and form most to screw players, and mainly going to effect newbs which makes it even worse.

No professional  is going trust any bullet until they have tag cleared it themselves.
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duckman

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« Reply #26 on: (20:54:50/08-05-19) »
I still have problems thinking that this passes muster with the First Rule.  If this kind of stuff ever works then it works too well and Shadowrunning doesn't exist.  To make this work every manufacturer of bullets has to agree to a standard and possibly a database of product.  What is the benefit of "This is an Ares Predator round"?  Nobody is going to pay to implement that...  Ballistics already knows that.  So it contains more...  Who sold it?  What batch it came from?  Now it is either enough to shut down runners (either by killing their suppliers or by giving them away directly) or it is so poor a system that it never works (and then like the anti-copy band on a CD that could be defeated by a magic marker, it will stop being used within a year).

Never mind that what they want is really more easily accomplished either with a well-arranged set of directional microphones or a ritual that sets up a spirit-net to watch for guns being fired.


This is not about how a runner can beat the system...  it's about who cannot beat the system and does it still provide any benefit to the corps that are putting the "RFID chips" out there.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #27 on: (21:07:05/08-05-19) »
I still have problems thinking that this passes muster with the First Rule.  If this kind of stuff ever works then it works too well and Shadowrunning doesn't exist.  To make this work every manufacturer of bullets has to agree to a standard and possibly a database of product.  What is the benefit of "This is an Ares Predator round"?  Nobody is going to pay to implement that...  Ballistics already knows that.  So it contains more...  Who sold it?  What batch it came from?  Now it is either enough to shut down runners (either by killing their suppliers or by giving them away directly) or it is so poor a system that it never works (and then like the anti-copy band on a CD that could be defeated by a magic marker, it will stop being used within a year).

Never mind that what they want is really more easily accomplished either with a well-arranged set of directional microphones or a ritual that sets up a spirit-net to watch for guns being fired.


This is not about how a runner can beat the system...  it's about who cannot beat the system and does it still provide any benefit to the corps that are putting the "RFID chips" out there.

Honestly the biggest thing that would probably defeat such a system, even if working fully like intended (and I can't see cooperation between groups like Lone Star and the Pawns), would be a combination of lazy admins who either don't want to be bothered to send someone to check it out (ugh, paperwork), or just ignores it cause 'crime ridden area'. A lot of crimes never get solved because of just that sort of thing. Then factor in the noise of a few hundred to a thousand other signals and icons that they could just be lost in the jungle that is the Matrix. Even then (I haven't read up on them fully yet, so grain of salt) I really doubt they're very high powered signal wise or long lasting. Even if one puts out a ping there may be no cop who can pick it up in range in the time it's active.

Here's why to mention the fact that the majority of legal bullets play tattletale even if the ones your runner gets will already be scrubbed. They will tell on you if you try to steal bullets from a guard and use them. Mr Johnson has a new way to betray your team if he offers them supplies in payment. You can play counter-ops by using bullets tagged with the marker of some rival corp. There are several ways such information can be used to devious ends.
You think any professional runner is gonna be dumb enough to use bullet a Johnson gave them without tag clearing it?

Yes I do. Because not every player plays a really smart and fairly paranoid runner. Someone can play a runner who is too trusting for their own good, and get into exactly that situation.
« Last Edit: (21:09:37/08-05-19) by Moonshine Fox »

Sendaz

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« Reply #28 on: (21:23:17/08-05-19) »
Just be glad they didn't try adding the next logical step.

No RIFD handshake from the bullet, no firing by the weapon.

How many companies would love to slip that into their weapon's so you have to buy and use aboveboard ammo, hell some would probably even make it go a step further and require the tags to match the brand of weapon, so Ares guns only fire legit Ares-brand ammo.

So then Runners would not only have to strip tags from the ammo, but also strip back any weapons to throwback levels to let them use untagged ammo.
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dezmont

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« Reply #29 on: (23:25:06/08-05-19) »

Yes I do. Because not every player plays a really smart and fairly paranoid runner. Someone can play a runner who is too trusting for their own good, and get into exactly that situation.

That sounds like totally hot garbage. It literally creating a mechanic to enshrine 'Gotcha' GMing, which is Bulldrek.

This was meant to be the edition where you needed to track less drek and not worry about fiddly garbage as much. The idea that this exists to, essentially, get new players who don't know about this fiddly garbage killed is so disgusting a design I actually refuse to believe it is real or at the very least intended. The idea of introducing administrative nonsense that purely exists to hurt players who aren't aware it exists, forget it exists, or don't have a decker on team is like... agressively one of the worst RPG design concepts I have ever heard, and I read Cthulhupunk through.

I could literally see that be someone's first experience with RPGs. They have fun, they go on a run. Their GM handed them a street samurai, they got fancy ammo and protected their team, had great banter, fell in love with their character. And then the GM tells them they got arrested and killed and the fun character they enjoyed doesn't exist anymore because they made a mistake not knowing about this stupid admin rule, and they quit RPGs and never play again.

Like... Ugh. I can't express how much I despise this interpretation of this rule. It actively makes my skin crawl.
« Last Edit: (23:31:44/08-05-19) by dezmont »