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Matrix in 6E

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dezmont

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« Reply #15 on: <07-18-19/0554:23> »
It is troubling to hear that jacks may be a 1 ess a rating investment, because that is extremely high in SR for a minimum investment into a role. Samurai, who are essence intensive, can get their entire essence package done with by 2 essence if they aren't going hard on soak tanking. 1/rating means that your role's 'ware at a mid grade level is going to be more than the deluxe of most roles, and its a huge part of why 5e riggers didn't work: Attribute 'ware is traditionally the gate of an archetype, and attaching a second gate more intense than attribute 'ware hurts an archetype. I get they are trying to prevent samurai from just taking this to go full decker, but in reality the main advantage of being a mundane is you can hybridize really well, and super strict walls between roles isn't ideal if mundanes are going to take advantage of the versatility 'ware and their reduced gen costs are meant to impart.

Secondly, while its nice to hear about streamlining and the fact you can always do something, it is troubling there isn't much talk about what deckers do outside of pure matrix scenes. I hope they have an identity outside of 'matrix things' sort of like what they grew into late in 5e with KillCode (no, I am NOT biased ;-;) where they became amazing tricksters and defensive buffers.

Third, and finally, 'Technomancers mostly unchanged' is very ominious and hopefully they just didn't impress enough that technos are also getting a massive reduction in the investment to be one.

Overall however, a lot of this is very common sense stuff. It may seem like I really hate this announcement, but in reality it said most of the things that NEEDED to be said ("We are making the matrix not take 5000 years and it will cost less so deckers can buy 'ware that isn't decking related so that you aren't FORCED to be a remote decker or to go into situations you have no tools to handle in a misguided attempt to be 'fair'") and some interesting concepts were teased. The fact deckers instead of buying all their stats in one clump combine two different mid grade investments means deckers will feel way less samey than they used to, especially if 'civilian' matrix stats are useful in the hands of a matrix specialist, because now the ratio of 'Dicepool boosts vs your deck vs your cyberjack' will specialize your decker (Hopefully) in the same way street samurai who both play street samurai 100% straight might be different due to their weapon choices and some 'ware choices.

It is a bit of a shame we didn't get anything jaw dropping like the magic writeup though, which while it had problems was probably perfect in what a teaser should do to the point it spoiled me. We didn't hear anything equivalent to "Oh and now heal has elements, wrap your brain around that you nerds and anticipate what that hotness will be!" It still is a good post that builds confidence in decking overall, yes, even with all those concerns I have. It is pretty much impossible for a teaser NOT to leave consumer anxiety inducing uncertainty, but a good one also projects confidence and competence, which this seems to do.


Finstersang

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« Reply #16 on: <07-18-19/0610:58> »
I think it sounds not too bad so far.

Yes, access Levels are pretty much Marks in disguise (which where SR4 access Levels in disguise, so... yeah :P), but as I understand it, there are now two ways to get stuff done (which are not mentioned in the article, though): Fast and loud or slow and sneaky. When you donīt have the Mark access level, you can now either get the access level first and do your stuff, or you can try to do the stuff directly, but you have to perform an illegal hacking action each time. In SR5, you could get your Marks by Brute Force or by Hack on the fly, but both actions were just as fast. You could only do stuff loud or not loud, but not really quicker. Reckless Hacking was intruduced too late and too badly thought through to really make a difference.

Some things that Iīm very curious about is the role of direct connections: In SR5, there was a clear benefit of getting direct access to devices, as you could use this as an easy entry point to hack the WAN/PAN/Host it was slaved to. Without Masters and Slaves (please donīt tell me that these were removed because of PC issues... God, better not ask  ::)), I hope they have thought about adding an incentive to go up close and personal with the devices you want to hack (besides throwbacks). I also found it a missed opportunity in SR5 that Data Taps only offered the advantage to make throwbacks go wireless, but nothing against gear that already is running wireless. Planting Data Taps is one very obvious way to facilitate actual teamplay between the hacker and the rest of the team.

About Carjackers: I suspect that all kinds (malicious) Hardware Manipulation like Carjacking, Maglock-Picking etc. will be enrolled in either Computer, Engineering or even the Cracking skill. Maybe we will see some non-hackers with Cracking as a part of their B&E skillset in this Edition? Iīd surely allow the Cracking skill to be used without a Deck or Resonance in the right circumstances. Things like glitching a Terminal or grabbing someones unlocked commlink and sneakily installing a tracking programm...

About Technomancers: Iīm on the fence here. At first, "We didn’t make many changes" doesnīt sound too good considering their horrible state over almost the whole lifespan of SR5. But maybe you really donīt have to change that much about TMs when the rules around them change. In SR5, Technos (and especially Trog TMS) were absolutely crippled by the limit mechanic, forcing them to make huge investments in all 4 Mental Attributes. But limits are thankfully gone now. I do hope that they donīt turn into a pet class again and that the Complex Forms are more direct and flashy and not just little twists on existing Matrix Actions and Programs, though.
« Last Edit: <07-18-19/1159:35> by Finstersang »

dezmont

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« Reply #17 on: <07-18-19/0810:34> »

Yes, access Levels are pretty much Marks in disguise

This does not seem to be the case. They behave a lot more like access levels from 4e (funny that) than marks. In fact, one can argue marks were nerfed 4e access levels, in that you needed to get access AND do other stuff, rather than access granting you a lot of 'free' benefits. This seems not so much a new thing but splitting the difference between 4e's godlike access levels that let you basically pull a crash 3.0 whenever you wanted due to how program copying and permanent hackable access worked in 4e, and 5e's marks which were temporary and not actually able to emulate a full user.

Not to be too off brandly charitable, but it seems like they are actually a recognition of the problem with 4e's matrix (the fact that permanent access created massive incentives to segregate all matrix content to the front end of the run and hack literally for as long as your GM would stand you copy-pasting your agents to every device within a 5 mile radius) while not designing the matrix to be really limited in what you could accomplish like 5e, where marks (and the general matrix design philosophy) didn't exist to say "You can do all these cool things" so much as say 'Look at all these things you CANT do, get inside that box and flick lightswitches, loop cameras, and open doors like a good little code monkey!"

I think the only lasting 'trauma' from 4e's matrix is the desire to really preciously protect the hacker's role from any intrusion, which is still bumming me out, but I suspect that 6e's matrix will be highly functional, purely going off this preview. Matrix PCs may struggle with a new essence crunch, but it is good they recognized for example that you can't force deckers to be there in the meat while at the same time making matrix tools so nuyen and skill expensive you can't get good at the meat, because... that was awful, like truly terrible.

Of course, to go back to my usual pessimistic self, this is only based on a preview designed to make it look good, so it could always be secretly terrible. :P But at the very least there were enough good ideas that a full length article could be written that didn't raise any major red flags and actually made me somewhat intrigued, which may seem like damning by faint praise but is actually like literally the most you can strive for in this sorta thing.

Banshee

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« Reply #18 on: <07-18-19/0827:23> »
I think it sounds not too bad so far.

Yes, access Levels are pretty much Marks in disguise, but as I understand it, there are now two ways to get stuff done (which are not mentioned in the article, though): Fast and loud or slow and sneaky. When you donīt have the Mark access level, you can now either get the access level first and do your stuff, or you can try to do the stuff directly, but you have to perform an illegal hacking action each time. In SR5, you could get your Marks by Brute Force or by Hack on the fly, but both actions were just as fast. You could only do stuff loud or not loud, but not really quicker. Reckless Hacking was intruduced too late and too badly thought through to really make a difference.

yeah, I didn't go into much detail here because I was directed to not give out many actual game mechanic details ... but yes you have the choice of fast and loud or slow and sneaky and reckless hacking isn't reallt required under the new system

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Some things that Iīm very curious about is the role of direct connections: In SR5, there was a clear benefit of getting direct access to devices, as you could use this as an easy entry point to hack the WAN/PAN/Host it was slaved to. Without Masters and Slaves (please donīt tell me that these were removed because of PC issues... God, better not ask  ::)), I hope they have thought about adding an incentive to go up close and personal with the devices you want to hack (besides throwbacks). I also found it a missed opportunity in SR5 that Data Taps only offered the advantage to make throwbacks go wireless, but nothing against gear that already is running wireless. Planting Data Taps is one very obvious way to facilitate actual teamplay between the hacker and the rest of the team.

I ditched Master/Slave relationships just because they were overly complicating the system and didn't need it ... technically from an IT infrastructure pint of view they still exist but it just doesn't matter to the game mechanics. All you need to worry about now is "do they share a network?". Want to hack the camera directly, then do it, or do you want to access the the camera via the security guard station where you can have total overwatch too, then do it ... it is the same process either way because they are on the same network

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About Carjackers: I suspect that all kinds (malicious) Hardware Manipulation like Carjacking, Maglock-Picking etc. will be enrolled in either Computer, Engineering or even the Cracking skill. Maybe we will see some non-hackers with Cracking as a part of their B&E skillset in this Edition? Iīd surely allow the Cracking skill to be used without a Deck or Resonance in the right circumstances. Things like glitching a Terminal or grabbing someones unlocked commlink and sneakily installing a tracking programm...

exactly, as I stated above we didn't get into specifically writing up car jacking (so to space restrictions that is limited to future books) we did lay the ground work with the intent of it just being a series of skill checks with the proper tool kit without the need to need to be a decker to do it

Quote
About Technomancers: Iīm on the fence here. At first, "We didn’t make many changes" doesnīt sound too good considering their horrible state over almost the whole lifespan of SR5. But maybe you really donīt have to change that much about TMs when the rules around them change. In SR5, Technos (and especially Trog TMS) were absolutely crippled by the limit mechanic, forcing them to make huge investments in all 4 Mental Attributes. But limits are thankfully gone now. I do hope that they donīt turn into a pet class again and that the Complex Forms are more direct and flashy and not just little twists on existing Matrix Actions and Programs, though.

yes, the biggest change to technomancers is the change to the system around them, I did rework the complex forms to work a little more direct and be useful across the board and sprites are still super useful if you want to go that route (not needed to function though) ... but now that everything is attribute+skill based things aren't nearly as bad for them as they used to be plus they get to use their resonance score as boost to their matrix attributes, so they get some choice and flexibility in how you can build them out and approach things in the matrix.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Typhus

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« Reply #19 on: <07-18-19/1031:23> »
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More importantly, Cyberjacks taking 2 of the Attributes allows more customization options for Deckers, since you can get a cheap deck and expensive jack, or the other way around. And they're by far superior to Commlinks stat-wise now.

I don't think this really addresses my concern here. Why must it be in my skull?  If it works in there, it can work outside of that too. Not allowing that doesn't make any sense, and seems to fly in the face of what's been established previously.

I'm not buying "modularity" either, since in past editions you could upgrade each rating on its own.  Except 5e where ratings were irrelevant since you could just switch them whenever.

Banshee

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« Reply #20 on: <07-18-19/1102:59> »
Quote
More importantly, Cyberjacks taking 2 of the Attributes allows more customization options for Deckers, since you can get a cheap deck and expensive jack, or the other way around. And they're by far superior to Commlinks stat-wise now.

I don't think this really addresses my concern here. Why must it be in my skull?  If it works in there, it can work outside of that too. Not allowing that doesn't make any sense, and seems to fly in the face of what's been established previously.

I'm not buying "modularity" either, since in past editions you could upgrade each rating on its own.  Except 5e where ratings were irrelevant since you could just switch them whenever.

ok ... fluff wise the reason is that the corps have been making changes to the basic matrix structure in an attempt to combat the technomancer threat, but the resonance being what it is has just kept adapting to the new protocols however deckers got the short end of the stick so to keep their edge in the new matrix environment the cyberjack was developed which allows for full neural interface.

for game mechanic reasons it was to simply allow us to offset the nuyen cost with essence for a portion of the "required" investment thus reducing the gatekeeping effect of having a super high required resource allotment to just be a decker ... which then leads into the "modularity" ... it is now very feasible have a starting decker that is very good at what he does right of the gate by going with resources c at most and cheaping out on either the cyberjack or the deck and then upgrade the other one later
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Perverseness

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« Reply #21 on: <07-18-19/1132:06> »
Is some this related to Character creation moving back to using ADCDE priority levels instead of free form point build?

Banshee

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« Reply #22 on: <07-18-19/1136:16> »
Is some this related to Character creation moving back to using ADCDE priority levels instead of free form point build?

the basic Priority build system has always been the default system right out of the gate, I assume point build will come later as part of the players option book when it is released
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #23 on: <07-18-19/1343:34> »
About Carjackers: I suspect that all kinds (malicious) Hardware Manipulation like Carjacking, Maglock-Picking etc. will be enrolled in either Computer, Engineering or even the Cracking skill. Maybe we will see some non-hackers with Cracking as a part of their B&E skillset in this Edition? Iīd surely allow the Cracking skill to be used without a Deck or Resonance in the right circumstances. Things like glitching a Terminal or grabbing someones unlocked commlink and sneakily installing a tracking programm...

exactly, as I stated above we didn't get into specifically writing up car jacking (so to space restrictions that is limited to future books) we did lay the ground work with the intent of it just being a series of skill checks with the proper tool kit without the need to need to be a decker to do it.

I'm all for the concept.  I always wanted the [subcategory] Mechanic skills to act a the Cracking Skill Group (and maybe even Electronics) for appropriate devices.

The problem is how it ties into the world.  I am reminded that I think you (Banshee) are the person who said [paraphrasing here] that you don't give a toot about tying the rules to the game world?  I hope I didn't screw that up...
Anyway, the only way to get the cars computer to play nice, without hacking it as a Decker, is to at best shut off wireless - and at worst shutdown the computer.

That sounds well and good, until you think about how the world reacts to that:
Shut off the computer?  If it is anything like modern cars, car don't run.
Turn off wireless?  Then I hope the Core book settles the whole idea on how Gridguide (and similar technologies) handle wireless-off cars, and whether or not that requires a special license, and if the local L.E.O.s are alerted automatically when an anomalous non-broadcasting vehicle is detected...

Banshee

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« Reply #24 on: <07-18-19/1409:21> »
About Carjackers: I suspect that all kinds (malicious) Hardware Manipulation like Carjacking, Maglock-Picking etc. will be enrolled in either Computer, Engineering or even the Cracking skill. Maybe we will see some non-hackers with Cracking as a part of their B&E skillset in this Edition? Iīd surely allow the Cracking skill to be used without a Deck or Resonance in the right circumstances. Things like glitching a Terminal or grabbing someones unlocked commlink and sneakily installing a tracking programm...

exactly, as I stated above we didn't get into specifically writing up car jacking (so to space restrictions that is limited to future books) we did lay the ground work with the intent of it just being a series of skill checks with the proper tool kit without the need to need to be a decker to do it.

I'm all for the concept.  I always wanted the [subcategory] Mechanic skills to act a the Cracking Skill Group (and maybe even Electronics) for appropriate devices.

The problem is how it ties into the world.  I am reminded that I think you (Banshee) are the person who said [paraphrasing here] that you don't give a toot about tying the rules to the game world?  I hope I didn't screw that up...
Anyway, the only way to get the cars computer to play nice, without hacking it as a Decker, is to at best shut off wireless - and at worst shutdown the computer.

That sounds well and good, until you think about how the world reacts to that:
Shut off the computer?  If it is anything like modern cars, car don't run.
Turn off wireless?  Then I hope the Core book settles the whole idea on how Gridguide (and similar technologies) handle wireless-off cars, and whether or not that requires a special license, and if the local L.E.O.s are alerted automatically when an anomalous non-broadcasting vehicle is detected...

first off ... that quote was definitely not me. the new matrix is specifically rewritten to function as much like real world IT security as we could make it without throwing the whole SR history out the window and starting over from scratch.

then taking the "real world" one step further (and this plays in to where I said we laid the ground work but did not address it directly) all you need to do is bypass or reprogram the computer of a car and it still run just fine, though you might lose some efficiency and bells and whistles it will still run ... and since matrix actions are attribute +skill (matrix attributes only figure in on the defensive side) then all it takes is proper skill use and not any hyper specialized gear such as a deck ... you do need to be able to access the computer but the proper toolkit can do that ... just like the mechanic down at the jiffy lube can do with using current real world technology and the right know how
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #25 on: <07-18-19/1414:34> »
... you do need to be able to access the computer but the proper toolkit can do that ... just like the mechanic down at the jiffy lube can do with using current real world technology and the right know how

As long as it is in the rules, and I don't have to give another GM a crash course in modern (and by extension, future) auto mechanics, I'm all for it.  :P

Midnight_Creeper

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« Reply #26 on: <07-18-19/1416:55> »

At the moment, though, I really, really dislike the cyberjack notion, and maybe even hate it.  Playtesters have revealed that this cyberjack is in the ballpark of 2-3 points of essence, which really bothers me.  The idea that suddenly after 5 editions and 30 years of enhancing the same technology, you have to get a partial skull and spinal replacement just to hack properly just doesn't feel right or make any sense.  It also has now been stated to have been done solely to solve for a hypothetical mechanical or balance issue, when I see no problem with just dropping the cost in general in what we had. That feels like design overtly disrupting a well established game world continuity to satisfy a "you" problem, not allow a "me" benefit.  I'm hoping this device can be houseruled out without breaking the whole system or making the book effectively useless to players.  I get that you can forego it and then apparently be a sucky decker, but that's a choice I also don't like.  It doesn't make any sense that it not being in your body makes you less good (especially when the software and hardware isn't doing the actions, its only your own skill dice, as was just confirmed in the post) or that VR protocols are suddenly need you to sacrifice half your soul to work right.  It feels like an insane and illogical tradeoff.  MAYBE if you added in five other meat world bennies to it, like a perception and or init boost, or built-in AR vision or something, and it might make some sense to me to go for. But you've only described it as basically implanting half a cyberdeck because you felt a need to balance things as that way instead of some other way.  I can't get behind that logic, and the history of the tech doesn't seem to support it either.  If I can upgrade either aspect, I can upgrade it whether it's in my skull or in a box, and that's always been true.  All the deckers in the shadowverse just decided let's rip half our spines and skulls just to be able to start at the new baseline? The whole point of being able to jack in was to be able to jack OUT when you needed to, yank the plug, and don't die when your deck fries.  It's why headware cyberdecks never caught on.  Now, I guess you'll just have to fry if you hit that black IC?  There better be a lot more to this crazy soul-sucking device we now have to have.  Otherwise, boo.  Just boo.

Maybe new players won't care, but it lands in the major minus column for me with only this teaser review to go on.  Sorry to those who struggled to create it, but that component is a thumbs way down.  FWIW, to stave off the inevitable rejoinders of 'you just hate what's different', no.  I don't care that it's different, i care that it's a major change that appears to make no sense on paper as described so far, and seems to upend the gameworld continuity, only implemented solely for meta reasons.  Unifying the game clock, simplifying processes, those are major changes too, but I find them completely all to the good.  This part, not so much.

And no, it's not a deal-breaker for me buying into 6E (its one piece of gear after all, hopefully I can just tell players it goes in the box instead of in the skull), but it's an eye-roller for me.  I'd love to be able to axe it.  I already have to work out a mechanic for putting meaningful armor back in the game and work out how to incorporate strength into melee, maybe even address how to do abstracted vehicle movement rules for chases, and now I will probably want to extricate cyberjacks too.   >:(


Personally, for my games, I'm going to keep Datajacks and have lower end and older Cyberdecks that carry all four attributes, with the option of Cyberjacks and cutting edge decks that split the difference as described, that way a specialist Decker can have the latter, while jack-of-all-trades types or sometimes Decker characters can go with the former option and still be somewhat competitive, and more so the more Nuyen they pour into that aspect. One of my favorite characters to play right now is a sneaky Cat Shaman with a little bit of cyberware that includes a datajack, depending on how "hefty" the Essence cost for the new Cyberjack is, it could ruin that character's concept.

Banshee

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« Reply #27 on: <07-18-19/1417:23> »
... you do need to be able to access the computer but the proper toolkit can do that ... just like the mechanic down at the jiffy lube can do with using current real world technology and the right know how

As long as it is in the rules, and I don't have to give another GM a crash course in modern (and by extension, future) auto mechanics, I'm all for it.  :P

well as I said it is not specifically in the rules yet (due to space restrictions we had to pick and choose) but that was the direction we intended for it to go
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #28 on: <07-18-19/1421:10> »
@Midnight: Don't worry.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Banshee

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« Reply #29 on: <07-18-19/1421:47> »


Personally, for my games, I'm going to keep Datajacks and have lower end and older Cyberdecks that carry all four attributes, with the option of Cyberjacks and cutting edge decks that split the difference as described, that way a specialist Decker can have the latter, while jack-of-all-trades types or sometimes Decker characters can go with the former option and still be somewhat competitive, and more so the more Nuyen they pour into that aspect. One of my favorite characters to play right now is a sneaky Cat Shaman with a little bit of cyberware that includes a datajack, depending on how "hefty" the Essence cost for the new Cyberjack is, it could ruin that character's concept.

datajacks are still a thing and function as they always have ... cyberjacks are just the superturbo version with nitros ... and I said in the article they are not explicitly required to have one ... as for essence they are comparable to wired reflexes but have 6 levels total
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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