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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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kyoto kid

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« Reply #360 on: <07-29-19/2143:07> »
Quote
HOWEVER there is a possibility that this brings in many, many new players who don't care about that stuff and just want to roll dice at each other without having to think much or simply don't have the depth of experience to understand the inherent flaws in the system and how it impacts a game built on planning detailed actions in advance.

I think this is getting at what my gut feeling is shaping up to be at the moment, which is that this is definitely a "beer and pretzels" version of Shadowrun that I can teach easily to the game group I currently have.  It brisk and approachable.  However, it trades that for the ability to have a satisfying campaign with a group of players who also tend to prefer Pathfinder over 5E D&D.  For one night, one-shot missions, sure.  Nobody will be that invested in the mechanics, and if the GM can keep his commentary down on the matter, many people will have a fun time. Stats nerds, power gamers, and SR vets will be the most likely to complain, if anyone does, I would guess.

Character advancement worries me a bit, since a lot of spells, qualities and gear will center around manipulation of the Edge mechanic, or the AR/DR ratio.  Neither element feels very satisfying to me as a veteran player, not like something I get excited to improve.  It feels more like expanding a menu of choices around how I can earn a metacurrency to do dice tricks, not necessarily to feel like my *character* did something inherently cool because of my build choices. 

Granted, my expectations are all set from prior editions.  I'm sure a lot of the things I don't find rewarding won't be noticed by brand new players with no basis for comparison.  I'm definitely in no rush to jump into 6E, even though it checks a lot of boxes for me in other areas.  Edge and AR/DR are the things I keep coming back to that is making it less appealing.  I'll be interested to hear what the buzz becomes when people get the rules in hand.
...same here.  I'll give it a look when the Core Rules PDF hits DrivethroughRPG.  For now though, my group seems to be set with 5E.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #361 on: <07-30-19/0826:51> »
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.
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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #362 on: <07-30-19/0846:18> »
Why would you ever want to play the bloated, poorly balanced mess that is 3.5? Play 5e for beer and pretzels night, and 2e for when you want to get in-depth about your dungeon crawling. Or maybe play a system that isn't goddamned D&D. I've been playing Savage Worlds Adventure Edition recently, and I find it runs as a good pulp action system while still being easy to learn and run.

That's an aside, though. The question at hand is how much of a beer and pretzels game does the current player base want Shadowrun to be? I personally find that 5e is plenty beer and pretzels when you run it Pink Mohawk.
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #363 on: <07-30-19/1701:32> »
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Lol, I love this and will probably steal it as my new tag line!!

As to Ghost Rigger. 3.5 was a poor balanced mess, but at least it killed the dumbass upside down AC bullshit of previous editions. Pathfinder, while also flawed fixed a decent amount of the issues. Personally, I have found Starfinder to be the best modern d20 system, streamlined without overly gamist feel. Starship combat needs some love though.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for •1 million/4 once.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #364 on: <07-30-19/1714:58> »
Have you tried any edition of Mutants&Masterminds? I've personally found it's the best of the d20 systems.
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #365 on: <07-30-19/1718:12> »
No, I have not, partly because I own either in PDF or hard copy almost all of Paizo Pathfinder stuff and a truck load of 3.X stuff. Love that Pathfinder was compatible. Would probably try it at some point.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for •1 million/4 once.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #366 on: <07-30-19/1723:59> »
Have you tried any edition of Mutants&Masterminds? I've personally found it's the best of the d20 systems.

Itís like Hero system with a non clunky game mechanic. I love it.

Marcus

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« Reply #367 on: <07-30-19/2352:57> »
I'm planning on waiting on 6e until at-least the first errata pass is complete before considering it again.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #368 on: <07-30-19/2357:03> »
You're not the only one hoping errata comes fast and efficient!
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #369 on: <07-31-19/0018:13> »
You're not the only one hoping errata comes fast and efficient!
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Typhus

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« Reply #370 on: <07-31-19/0101:03> »
OK, is it weird I'm more interested in what's going to get said after the NDA lifts than to read the rules themselves?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #371 on: <07-31-19/0110:05> »
The errata-process itself will no doubt always remain under NDA, especially since some 'maybe this should be X' might turn into optional rules in splat-books instead. But there is an active errata process. Keyword active. And that's all I can share, really. :-X
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Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #372 on: <07-31-19/1247:47> »
Keyword active.

Will believe that when it actually comes out. We have members that were actively trying to get out errata for 5th. Looks like to me CGL was to busy making 6th to finish getting out the old erratas that were ready, except for CGL stamp of approval. Hell, at this point I don't give a drek if it looks like the older errata, just please get it out. Sorry, CGL has basically burned me to much.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for •1 million/4 once.

Hobbes

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« Reply #373 on: <07-31-19/1348:16> »
Have you tried any edition of Mutants&Masterminds? I've personally found it's the best of the d20 systems.

Itís like Hero system with a non clunky game mechanic. I love it.

Check out Prowlers and Paragons.  Superheroes and lots of D6s.  Solid mechanics, easy character building.  Easily my favorite Superhero RPG that I never get to play.   :P

mcv

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« Reply #374 on: <08-01-19/0839:58> »
2) Pixies can hit as hard as a Troll:
So what. 6e isn't the first game where you can leverage your dexterity/agility into being the relevant stat for determining damage. D&D/d20 has had finesse weapons and various feats/enchantments that allow you to substitute in dex bonuses in place of str bonuses.  That doesn't seem to have proven outside the realm of reasonable suspension of disbelief for those game systems.  In fact, I'd consider SR fortunate indeed to have a fraction of D&D's popularity. 
The fact that D&D does this doesn't automatically make it a good idea. That in D&D Strength often adds to to hit, and in some cases Dex adds to damage, is one of my biggest problems with the system. Having different stats do the same thing (especially in D&D4) makes the difference between different stats increasingly meaningless. I would prefer Strength to be the only stat that ever adds to damage in D&D, and not having Strength add to damage in Shadowrun risks making Strength a pointless stat to invest in.

I have no real opinion on SR6 because I haven't read the rules yet, but I do agree with the OP's point that things should make sense. If armor doesn't help your survivability, then what's the point of armor? If being strong doesn't help you to do more damage, then what's the point in being strong?