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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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Lormyr

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« Reply #330 on: <07-29-19/1352:17> »
The edge issue vs. armor/other changed this is one of the major conundrums. Left as is at 2 edge gain max per round, a number of options from armor to spell resistance are arguably worthless. Allow more edge gain per round, and I fully agree with SSD that it will get entirely out of hand instantly.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #331 on: <07-29-19/1403:17> »
The edge issue vs. armor/other changed this is one of the major conundrums. Left as is at 2 edge gain max per round, a number of options from armor to spell resistance are arguably worthless. Allow more edge gain per round, and I fully agree with SSD that it will get entirely out of hand instantly.
Itís almost like banking everything on a magic system rarely works.

Everything Iíve seen so far tells me edge would have been a great supplement to a armor soak/situational modifier system but does not seem to do a great job almost entirely replacing it.

Lormyr

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« Reply #332 on: <07-29-19/1405:43> »
Itís almost like banking everything on a magic system rarely works.

Everything Iíve seen so far tells me edge would have been a great supplement to a armor soak/situational modifier system but does not seem to do a great job almost entirely replacing it.

I couldn't tell you if the chicken or the egg came first there, just that the nest is a mess after.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Banshee

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« Reply #333 on: <07-29-19/1408:24> »
Itís almost like banking everything on a magic system rarely works.

Everything Iíve seen so far tells me edge would have been a great supplement to a armor soak/situational modifier system but does not seem to do a great job almost entirely replacing it.

I couldn't tell you if the chicken or the egg came first there, just that the nest is a mess after.

not that it changes anything at this point, but I can tell you that the mechanic I proposed that eventually mutated into the current Edge system predates the armor removal and was never intended to replace it what so ever ... also there is several degrees of evolution between
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Hobbes

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« Reply #334 on: <07-29-19/1418:04> »
I tell you what, if you're able to gain 5+ edge per round, it'll become a Superhero RPG.

One for some kind of tactical advantage, One for high AV vs DV, One for bringing the GM cookies.  Edge gain seems kind of self limiting except for oddball cases of lots of low AV attacks vs a high DV defender or whatever.

I suppose once enough supplements are printed with Qualities and Gear a PC may have two or three applicable things to generate Edge per action.  But out of the core book I wouldn't think many players are significantly inconvenienced by the Two Edge per turn limit.  May just be me though.

Lormyr

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« Reply #335 on: <07-29-19/1420:00> »
not that it changes anything at this point, but I can tell you that the mechanic I proposed that eventually mutated into the current Edge system predates the armor removal and was never intended to replace it what so ever ... also there is several degrees of evolution between

The commentary is still useful for understanding, so it's appreciated.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #336 on: <07-29-19/1427:22> »
I tell you what, if you're able to gain 5+ edge per round, it'll become a Superhero RPG.

One for some kind of tactical advantage, One for high AV vs DV, One for bringing the GM cookies.  Edge gain seems kind of self limiting except for oddball cases of lots of low AV attacks vs a high DV defender or whatever.

I suppose once enough supplements are printed with Qualities and Gear a PC may have two or three applicable things to generate Edge per action.  But out of the core book I wouldn't think many players are significantly inconvenienced by the Two Edge per turn limit.  May just be me though.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #337 on: <07-29-19/1436:51> »
I tell you what, if you're able to gain 5+ edge per round, it'll become a Superhero RPG.

One for some kind of tactical advantage, One for high AV vs DV, One for bringing the GM cookies.  Edge gain seems kind of self limiting except for oddball cases of lots of low AV attacks vs a high DV defender or whatever.

I suppose once enough supplements are printed with Qualities and Gear a PC may have two or three applicable things to generate Edge per action.  But out of the core book I wouldn't think many players are significantly inconvenienced by the Two Edge per turn limit.  May just be me though.

Per turn maybe. Per round I think probably fairly often.

Also it just lacks granularity. Either multiple situational modifiers could apply or the severity of a modifier but itís always just one edge. Like Iíd probably grant a edge for defense is the target was small but toaster on wheels small is different than a fly small but both would be one edge in the fictional example. Weirdly the moving fly might be easier to hit than a non resisting moving fly as Iíd probably make that a damn hard shot like threshold 3 or 4. Moving it might have 6 dice to dodge and get 1 edge.

Finstersang

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« Reply #338 on: <07-29-19/1456:45> »
The edge issue vs. armor/other changed this is one of the major conundrums. Left as is at 2 edge gain max per round, a number of options from armor to spell resistance are arguably worthless. Allow more edge gain per round, and I fully agree with SSD that it will get entirely out of hand instantly.

The second part is only a systematic issue for tanky characters that strategize on getting attacked a lot, though. And even in this case, "getting out of hand" merely means that Tanky McTrollface has the option to bank the Edge he gets for armor, cover and beneficial circumstances for his own counterattacks instead of using it defensively. While this kind of "bait-and-punish"-playstyle may look a bit cheesy and "gamey" at a first glance, it is:

  • a.) still more realistic than a system where the amount of factors and perks that are allowed to play a role is arbitrarily limited based on a 3-second increment.
  • b.) quite fun to play out. And fun is important, right? RIGHT? ::)
  • c.) hardly without risk.
  • d.) counterable by properly employing grunt rules.

And if thatīs still to "messy", what about that other alternative to the 2-Edge-cap that is often discussed: There is a Limit of 2 per round, but it only applies to edge tokens that are saved for later actions. With this, no amount of Edge really goes to waste, but you are often forced to use it on the test where you earned it.   
« Last Edit: <07-29-19/1502:25> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

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Hobbes

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« Reply #339 on: <07-29-19/1507:53> »
I tell you what, if you're able to gain 5+ edge per round, it'll become a Superhero RPG.

One for some kind of tactical advantage, One for high AV vs DV, One for bringing the GM cookies.  Edge gain seems kind of self limiting except for oddball cases of lots of low AV attacks vs a high DV defender or whatever.

I suppose once enough supplements are printed with Qualities and Gear a PC may have two or three applicable things to generate Edge per action.  But out of the core book I wouldn't think many players are significantly inconvenienced by the Two Edge per turn limit.  May just be me though.
Riggers.

Get one Edge per Vehicle test if they have a Control Rig, sure.  That's one per turn.  If there is a Vehicle test that can be done as a minor action, I guess that would be an issue.  If whatever they're doing "Has an advantage" that's two, same as everyone else.  Third from doing it again because VR initiative...?   

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #340 on: <07-29-19/1518:09> »
Remember that Vehicle Skill test is an SR5 term which includes Gunnery, and the Rigger chapter makes clear it's any jumped in test with the vehicle/drone that gets a Rig bonus. So Engineering for firing counts, aka 1 Edge from the Rig, 1 from AR-DR, 1 from having a tactical Edge, limit.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #341 on: <07-29-19/1525:00> »
I mean going '+2 edge per action max, 1 edge expenditure per action max' is fine as houserule, but it will indeed be the cinematic dramatic fighting style in comparison. That's the point where I walk into a crowd of enemies, dual-wielding assault rifles, and spray them down while evading every attack thrown at me. 8)

Yeah, but all of that is only (somewhat...) possible if you come well prepared and armored, use the environment to your advantage, split up your opposition to avoid getting ganged up on...

I think that conceptional dissonance the problem here: Edge is getting rebranded as a general gameplay mechanic that encompasses a vast array of perks, gear options and situational modifiers, emphasizes strategy and rewards planning BUT THEN there just has to be this arbitrary (and quite strict) limit put on it, as if itīs still that kind of overpowered cinematic/superhero/luck/fatepoint-mechanic it has been in the previous Editions.
« Last Edit: <07-29-19/1527:39> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #342 on: <07-29-19/1619:17> »
Remember that Vehicle Skill test is an SR5 term which includes Gunnery, and the Rigger chapter makes clear it's any jumped in test with the vehicle/drone that gets a Rig bonus. So Engineering for firing counts, aka 1 Edge from the Rig, 1 from AR-DR, 1 from having a tactical Edge, limit.
But wait, there's more! Let's assume this nebulously defined tactical advantage has nothing to do with visual impairment (for instance, a surprise attack); then on top of all that we could be attacking an opponent with no sensors or vision augments in pitch darkness while having ultrasound, thermographic vision and lowlight vision ourselves, allowing us to earn another edge point. For a truly extreme example, the target could also be doused in gasoline while we are conveniently attacking with a flamethrower, earning a fifth edge point. And all this is just one action; if the target (should they survive) or their friends fire back, 3 more edge could potentially be earned per dodge from the control rig, the AR-DR and visibility issues.

The limit of 2 edge per round is ridiculous.
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adzling

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« Reply #343 on: <07-29-19/1630:43> »
The edge issue vs. armor/other changed this is one of the major conundrums. Left as is at 2 edge gain max per round, a number of options from armor to spell resistance are arguably worthless. Allow more edge gain per round, and I fully agree with SSD that it will get entirely out of hand instantly.

herein lies one of my major issues with the new system.

Xenon

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« Reply #344 on: <07-29-19/1641:55> »
Two observations:

1. So you bank 2 edge and use the rest on the actions where you earned them. Or am I missing something here...?

2. Gaining an edge seem to just be half the equation. The other half seen to be to deny the oppression from gaining one. Even if you can't bank more edge you can still prevent the opposition from gaining one.