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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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Katanarchist

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« Reply #255 on: <07-21-19/0338:00> »
I guess one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this is I have already gone through this with one of my other favorite games (legends of the five rings) and watched the new company destroy everything that I liked about it in the name of getting new players and for lack of a better name social justice.
examples:
Resetting the story to;
Add a more female heavy story line
Add a lesbian love story

The idea of someone complaining about more inclusive representation in on a forum devoted to a cyberpunk game with explicit themes of fighting against oppression is absolutely precious.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/0351:14> by Katanarchist »

dezmont

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« Reply #256 on: <07-21-19/0433:31> »
The idea of someone complaining about more inclusive representation in on a forum devoted to a cyberpunk game with explicit themes of fighting against oppression is absolutely precious.

Every so often some Ancap Libretarian finds their way into the shadowrun subreddit and reacts with shock and horror that people reading shadowrun take away that corporations being able to write their own rules is... bad!


While I don't think FFG has done terribly well with L5R, these two complaints as someone who has played in L5R Koteis and palled around in the circles they drew people for the Winter Court games from, the main sin of FFG was reducing the importance of the Mantis, and more importantly, my precious Fox clan. Their main non-joking sin is not realizing how important faction identity is in L5R's balance as a cardgame and how huge a turnoff it is that they seriously don't care that some factions are more supported than others. Netrunner, a 'dead' game currently has more fans than L5R playing online and talking about the card game.

L5R always had LGBT love in it (In fact in universe it is often seen as more ideal than heterosexual love because it does not create as much a risk to one's duty because you can't have illegitimate heirs, and while there are debates to be had about that representation the fact that 'lgbt people exist in Rokugan' is a silly hottake to have) and a few major NPCs were in same sex relationships. Like if you even remotely examine L5R's take on sexuality it is super obviously commenting on how L5R's view of love and marriage is very unhealthy and that all that repression is not... good? Which is why some of the more interesting NPCs are gay (like the scorpion in one of the pre-made adventure modules who is a total badass, patrons a business, helps you out if you ask him for info, and will flat out laugh in your face for being so dense if you ask him why he does't have a wife because its totally an open secret he loves other men and he was not required to marry as part of his duties) Also, LGBT people exist and them showing up in media about people isn't pandering, it is just reflecting the fact humanity is a diverse species, not to mention that RPG players tend to be extremely pro LGBT due to the average RPG player's background, be it social outcast who empathizes or drama nerd.

Trying to flip the bird to 'the SJWs' is also downright dumb business because it turns out at least in this industry being biggoted against LGBT people doesn't make you in some sort of silent majority. It is very much the minority to the point that it was a huge news item in the RPG industry that White Wolf, one of the largest RPG publishers, will essentially no longer exist because fan backlash over their constant attempts at right wing edgyness killed any good will they had with their core consumers.

As for reverting the timeline: Reverting the timeline made sense because L5R had gotten downright wacky. once the GOD OF EVIL had a Godzilla fight with the Hindu god of destruction to save all of Rokugan. Things got way to complex and too weird and moved very far away from anything coherent the emperor was married to a literal shadow hag incarnation of evil but openly and no one thought he was evil and ughhhhghyhghghghghghhgh.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/0436:35> by dezmont »

tenchi2a

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« Reply #257 on: <07-21-19/0435:34> »
I guess one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this is I have already gone through this with one of my other favorite games (legends of the five rings) and watched the new company destroy everything that I liked about it in the name of getting new players and for lack of a better name social justice.
examples:
Resetting the story to;
Add a more female heavy story line
Add a lesbian love story

The idea of someone complaining about more inclusive representation in on a forum devoted to a cyberpunk game with explicit themes of fighting against oppression is absolutely precious.

I was not complaining about more inclusive representation as the old story line had plenty of inclusive representation I was complaining about them throwing away 20+ years of cooperative storylines (AEG/players) to tell almost the same story over again with the major changes being changing the Clan leadership to be mostly female and to change a major story arc to lesbian love story. Just to be clear I have nothing against there be a same sex relationship if it makes sense to the story, but they shoehorned it in to an already existing story arc that now makes no sense since it originally revolve around an out of wedlock son to a married woman and how the birth father was forced to kill him during the a coup forcing the mother to seek revenge on her sons killer, her lover.
Turning this into a same sex relationship kind of kills this whole story arc for no other reason as to add a same sex relationship as they are running the current version, last I looked, almost beat for beat the same as the old one.

And besides that my main issues was with the new mechanics not the story. For example, some brilliant game designer not thinking that perception or investigation where important skills to add to a game that is mostly played as a magistrate group.  The carbon copy story with the above stated changes just added fuel to the fire.
Also I have quite a few friends in the LGBT community one of them being in my L5R group and even she said FFG went to far with these changes.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/0457:38> by tenchi2a »

tenchi2a

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« Reply #258 on: <07-21-19/0441:27> »
The idea of someone complaining about more inclusive representation in on a forum devoted to a cyberpunk game with explicit themes of fighting against oppression is absolutely precious.

Every so often some Ancap Libretarian finds their way into the shadowrun subreddit and reacts with shock and horror that people reading shadowrun take away that corporations being able to write their own rules is... bad!


While I don't think FFG has done terribly well with L5R, these two complaints as someone who has played in L5R Koteis and palled around in the circles they drew people for the Winter Court games from, the main sin of FFG was reducing the importance of the Mantis, and more importantly, my precious Fox clan. Their main non-joking sin is not realizing how important faction identity is in L5R's balance as a cardgame and how huge a turnoff it is that they seriously don't care that some factions are more supported than others. Netrunner, a 'dead' game currently has more fans than L5R playing online and talking about the card game.

L5R always had LGBT love in it (In fact in universe it is often seen as more ideal than heterosexual love because it does not create as much a risk to one's duty because you can't have illegitimate heirs, and while there are debates to be had about that representation the fact that 'lgbt people exist in Rokugan' is a silly hottake to have) and a few major NPCs were in same sex relationships. Like if you even remotely examine L5R's take on sexuality it is super obviously commenting on how L5R's view of love and marriage is very unhealthy and that all that repression is not... good? Which is why some of the more interesting NPCs are gay (like the scorpion in one of the pre-made adventure modules who is a total badass, patrons a business, helps you out if you ask him for info, and will flat out laugh in your face for being so dense if you ask him why he does't have a wife because its totally an open secret he loves other men and he was not required to marry as part of his duties) Also, LGBT people exist and them showing up in media about people isn't pandering, it is just reflecting the fact humanity is a diverse species, not to mention that RPG players tend to be extremely pro LGBT due to the average RPG player's background, be it social outcast who empathizes or drama nerd.

Trying to flip the bird to 'the SJWs' is also downright dumb business because it turns out at least in this industry being biggoted against LGBT people doesn't make you in some sort of silent majority. It is very much the minority to the point that it was a huge news item in the RPG industry that White Wolf, one of the largest RPG publishers, will essentially no longer exist because fan backlash over their constant attempts at right wing edgyness killed any good will they had with their core consumers.

As for reverting the timeline: Reverting the timeline made sense because L5R had gotten downright wacky. once the GOD OF EVIL had a Godzilla fight with the Hindu god of destruction to save all of Rokugan. Things got way to complex and too weird and moved very far away from anything coherent the emperor was married to a literal shadow hag incarnation of evil but openly and no one thought he was evil and ughhhhghyhghghghghghhgh.

its not resetting the storyline that is the issues.
its resetting it to tell almost the same story over just to add these changes.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #259 on: <07-21-19/0602:20> »
Issues with L5R 5th edition (FFG)
1. Turning a skill list of 43 skills mostly generic weapon skills (ex: sword(kenjutsu), heavy weapon, etc.) into 5 overly generic skill groups ex: all weapons now one skill group called Martial skill.
2. Mad lib/ one-form-column-A one-from-column-B character creation.
3. Weapon breakage rules that favor armor a lot.
4. Custom dice
5. Forced progressive Strife system that forces you to fail rolls on purpose or gain strife that you must lose honor to get rid of, or if you are one of the lucky clans burn off using your abilities.
6. Complete disregard for established Rokugan social customs to push their stories.
7. One designer that learned L5R over a weekend (his own words) as one of the two lead designers. And the other who (by her own words) plays the game as a Japanese simulator and wanted to bring L5R in line with that vision. To be clear on this Rokugan is not Japan and the FRPG/AEG developers always stated that they intended it not to be Japan.
Almost forgot:
7. attributes replaced by approaches, or do you use the skill thoughtfully, passionately, calmly, etc.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/0622:22> by tenchi2a »

Serbitar

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« Reply #260 on: <07-21-19/0716:24> »
You can have opinions, think a game sucks, whatever. But when you start questioning the skill, knowledge, and decision-making of developers, that's when you stop criticizing and start becoming a troll, man.

Why? Is there no universe in which a developer can have not enough skill, knowledge and has bad decision making?
nd you are a Troll If you claim this is possible?

Strange.

Katanarchist

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« Reply #261 on: <07-21-19/0747:32> »
Every so often some Ancap Libretarian finds their way into the shadowrun subreddit and reacts with shock and horror that people reading shadowrun take away that corporations being able to write their own rules is... bad!

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FastJack

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« Reply #262 on: <07-21-19/1009:01> »
Okay, if you want to discuss the changes to L5R, please move that discussion to another thread under the General Gaming boards.

You can have opinions, think a game sucks, whatever. But when you start questioning the skill, knowledge, and decision-making of developers, that's when you stop criticizing and start becoming a troll, man.

Why? Is there no universe in which a developer can have not enough skill, knowledge and has bad decision making?
nd you are a Troll If you claim this is possible?

Strange.
I am not claiming that. However, I *am* claiming that if you attack individuals, you are in breach of the forum's Terms of Service, which you agreed to when you registered an account. Rule #1 is play nice and attacking individuals, even if they are not on the forums, will result in warnings and bannings, as other members can attest to (except some that decided a permanent ban was worth their personal "opinions").

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #263 on: <07-21-19/1042:00> »
Let me clarify a bit: At my home game I know what houserules I need to circumvent vagueness. I love math and crunch and I can handle SR5 just fine. But not all my players can, and at open events I'm restricted. I can't advertise SR5 as well as I want to, and the crunch gets in the way of some of my players. If I can convince them to give Shadowrun another shot in SR6, then I love that. So it's not that I dislike SR5 and think everyone should quit it. But I believe SR6 is what the franchise needs.
That is what I am seeing now with the streamlining craze, games becoming shells of what they once where to join the bandwagon. Most of the game I play are due to the mechanics and how they fit the setting, streamlining has a tendency to destroy this in an attempt to draw in new players with simple rule.
If a company has to draw in players by proudly announcing they rulebook is only 300 pages then something is wrong.
Truth be told if you removed most of the pictures, stories, extras from the 5th corebook you could get really close to 300 pages without changing the rules so page count is not the reason. This leaves only one option, you are trying to attract players who want to play a simple game.
And that IMHO is not what Shadowrun has ever been about.

So you want to remove all the flavor and fluff from the core rulebook that gives you a picture of the world and setting that you're about to play? How does that help anyone outside of those of us who've been playing for years? A CRB needs to also impart an image of the world/setting it's for, otherwise players have no clue what's this world about. And for comparison, with pictures and stories and "extras" (whatever that is since all that's left is crunch and typeset), the 3rd edition rulebook was 330 pages. 4th edition was 349. 5th edition was 478. Notice the difference?

As for streamlined rules, you can make something streamlined but still highly robust. In fact, making the core parts of a rule more streamlined allow you to add in ever more complexity and player choices then by something that's already highly complex and new entries will have to account for dozens of other rules. For a real world example of over complexity, a Rube Goldberg machine.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #264 on: <07-21-19/1154:39> »
Let me clarify a bit: At my home game I know what houserules I need to circumvent vagueness. I love math and crunch and I can handle SR5 just fine. But not all my players can, and at open events I'm restricted. I can't advertise SR5 as well as I want to, and the crunch gets in the way of some of my players. If I can convince them to give Shadowrun another shot in SR6, then I love that. So it's not that I dislike SR5 and think everyone should quit it. But I believe SR6 is what the franchise needs.
That is what I am seeing now with the streamlining craze, games becoming shells of what they once where to join the bandwagon. Most of the game I play are due to the mechanics and how they fit the setting, streamlining has a tendency to destroy this in an attempt to draw in new players with simple rule.
If a company has to draw in players by proudly announcing they rulebook is only 300 pages then something is wrong.
Truth be told if you removed most of the pictures, stories, extras from the 5th corebook you could get really close to 300 pages without changing the rules so page count is not the reason. This leaves only one option, you are trying to attract players who want to play a simple game.
And that IMHO is not what Shadowrun has ever been about.

So you want to remove all the flavor and fluff from the core rulebook that gives you a picture of the world and setting that you're about to play? How does that help anyone outside of those of us who've been playing for years? A CRB needs to also impart an image of the world/setting it's for, otherwise players have no clue what's this world about. And for comparison, with pictures and stories and "extras" (whatever that is since all that's left is crunch and typeset), the 3rd edition rulebook was 330 pages. 4th edition was 349. 5th edition was 478. Notice the difference?

As for streamlined rules, you can make something streamlined but still highly robust. In fact, making the core parts of a rule more streamlined allow you to add in ever more complexity and player choices then by something that's already highly complex and new entries will have to account for dozens of other rules. For a real world example of over complexity, a Rube Goldberg machine.

You totally missed the point of what I was saying.
A lot of people where claiming the page count reduction was to reduce the cost of the book. I was showing here how much (not saying unwelcome or unneeded) space was used for non rule related page count in the corebook. And that this was all a marketing tactic to show less pages equal easier game to learn for new players. (not say it is just what this kind of marketing is usually meant to imply.
And while I am all for a history section and a round rundown to set the stage for the setting and show the game in action the every chapter stories ranging for 3 to 6 pages long feel to me as page count padding to up the price of the book, I would even bet that in that 300 pages they wasted upwards of 100 pages on that alone as is normal for RPG books nowadays.
« Last Edit: <07-21-19/1209:47> by tenchi2a »

incrdbil

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« Reply #265 on: <07-25-19/2311:56> »

...

Personally, from what has been presented so far, I'm not likely to purchase straight away. I will see what the core rules have to offer, but I don't like what I see so far. Which, for the record, no one has to justify WHY. I don't like shell fish, don't have to explain why, just don't.  I also hate paisley. Won't buy it. It may be the most comfortable perfect fit piece of wear in the world, but I'll never even consider it based on what I SEE at the moment.

6th Edition might be a perfectly playable and enjoyable system. And for those that think so, beautiful. ENJOY, the world needs more gamers. I think many are upset because of the perceived "star peg into round hole" feel the rules have as presented so far. Heck, even a square peg would have preferred, though was hoping for a few more sides myself (better fit/less drastic a change)
...

As for the "if we don't buy it, it might go away" thing. If (and I do mean IF, since I don't have the core rules I don't know, but the QSR have NOT impressed me) it sucks for my table, should I still support the company that is producing it so they can put out more of something I don't think is worth it? Never going to happen.  If sales are down and they don't try to analyze why and try and find a solution (whatever that may be) then why bother at all?
...
Personally, I'm going to try and stay away from the coulda/shoulda/woulda conversations. What's been done is done. Now, the only thing to do will be how to fix what is perceived to be broken on an individual level and let the company know we are dissatisfied, how we are dissatisfied and why we are dissatisfied in a way that they will hopefully listen, NOT crankily bitch and moan nonconstructively.

I appreciate your thoughts and experience, which are in line with mine. In the end, no matter if I never adopt the rules, there will be plenty of material I could utilize for 5th. But I don't want that to be confused with support for continuing where 6e is heading in the future. So maybe that will influence what I do get as well. in the meantime, I hope that communication opens up so whatever lessons learned from the new edition are learned quickly and positively effect decisions made in the future.

kyoto kid

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« Reply #266 on: <07-28-19/0348:21> »
Or, to flip it around, it places more emphasis on being skilled with the weapon rather then just happening to be the most roided rager in the room, since unless you know what you're doing you're likely to hit someone with the flat of the blade or misjudge the position needed for a good slice leaving only painful, but otherwise superficial bruises and lacerations.

And professional baseball players have never had steroid scandals because the power (damage) behind swinging a bat has nothing to do with strength....

Gimme a break.

As anyone who has any true understanding of physical combat will tell you, strength, speed, coordination, and skill all play a part in how much damage can be brought to bear.  With simplification being a main goal of 6e, we can't expect anything to come close to accurately incorporate all of those things, the least that can be done is if Agility and Skill are being used to attack, Strength should play a part in damage.
...so according to the  6e rules, being in my 60s, out of shape with maybe no where near the strength I used to have, let alone that of say, Mark McGuire in his prime (particularly when he was on the juice), but still knowing how to swing a bat from my younger days in the game and still having that "eye", I would be able to belt a home run as hard and as far he could.

Yeah, doesn't make sense.

Hyperbole aside.... neither 5e nor 6e has rules for determining how far you can slug a baseball with a swing.  Either system, the GM is making up how to mechanically figure that answer... assuming the answer isn't just made up arbitrarily anyway.

You don't HAVE to make static weapon DVs into more than it what it is.  6e obviously isn't saying that strength has nothing to do with how far you can hit a baseball.  My point is neither is a static DV mechanic.  You can chose to link the two and have a bad time, or you can take the rules for what they are build on that framework to have a good time.  In my perspective, posts like this are cases of people choosing to have a bad time and falsely laying external blame for it. Obviously, YMMV.
...elaborating on Iron Serpent's post, what I am getting at is you need a faster more powerful swing to hit a ball further, which means more strength, which in turn translates to bat speed.  Therefore damage from melee weapons would be affected by strength.

OK now take  that same bat, use it as a melee weapon and it becomes terribly gimped in Mr. McGuire's hands as no matter how much strength (speed) he put behind it, he'd do the same amount amount of damage old broken down I would.  With his full strength swing, he'd likely crush opponents head in, while I might break a cheekbone and nose as well as knock out a few teeth.

That is the analogy I was working at.
« Last Edit: <07-28-19/0359:01> by kyoto kid »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #267 on: <07-28-19/0846:28> »
OTOH, SR has never been a "Universal Simulator" kind of game, and 6WE is not attempting to be one either.  In 6WE, you play a Shadowrunner.  You get in fights with people like gangers, mob soldiers, cops, and security guards.  50 year old out of shape former little-leaguers aren't part of the calculus (for the combat system, at least).

It doesn't matter if someone like "real world us" lacks the physical strength to replicate the damage someone like a Mark McGuire could do with a baseball bat.  In the RPG, the presumption is if a PC or NPC lacks raw power, they instead make up for it with speed and quickness.  The presumption is if you're employing a melee weapon, then you know HOW to employ the melee weapon to maximum effectiveness given your own physical capabilities.

Yes this kind of breaks down if your PC is in fact a 50 year old out of shape person with terrible physical stats across the board. There are valid archetypes you could be going for where that'd fit, and of course you might find such a PC stuck fighting a professional combatant like a ganger, mob soldier, etc.  But you won't find that happening often, not unless you're an idiot of a player who refuses to keep a clearly non-combatant kind of runner out of close combat.  Anyway, the point I want to make on this contingency is rules don't inherently need to address exceptions to the norm.  "Ok, your runner lacks a Juicer's Strength?  And simultaneously also lacks a Ninja's agility? Fine, your DV is penalized."   Or, if you're reluctant to impose non-explicitly stated penalties (i.e. "house rules") you can work within what's explicitly provided and decree that a fat, out of shape would-be-melee-combatant just automatically is giving away circumstantial edge to everyone he swings at.
« Last Edit: <07-28-19/0904:22> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #268 on: <07-28-19/1003:05> »
Oy vey, are we back on this. SSDR is dead on that all games tend to abstract when it comes to damage in ways we simply accept, even if they don’t always make much sense.

In your example, all you are arguing is that, in a vacuum were only the total force applied to the bat is measured, that old’n’busted can’t match new’hotness. And you’d be right. Such things however don’t exist in a vacuum and the force applied to the motion of the bat is but one small fragment of the overall physics equation that is hitting a baseball. Other parts of that needing to be taken into account:

The force (speed) applied to the throw of the ball.
Then spin applied to the ball in flight.
The angle of travel of the ball.
The angle of motion of the bat.
The place on the bat the ball impacts.
The place on the ball the bat impacts (two different things).

All of the various parts will interact to ultimately determine where the ball ends up, and what damage the ball does to the bat. This is why there are so many different types of pitch, as each one changes up the pitchers variables forcing the batter to change his variables to achieve the same result. Misjudge a single aspect of the whole equation, and you get a result different than what you intended. And all of that completely ignores that weapons evolved to amplify different aspects of our force to allow people to match each other more on their skill with their weapons rather then just how much they can bench.

An agile elven noble who is a master duelist with a rapier is just as equally deadly as a bulked up troll merc who has mastered his use of an axe.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #269 on: <07-28-19/1101:02> »
Yes this kind of breaks down if your PC is in fact a 50 year old out of shape person with terrible physical stats across the board. There are valid archetypes you could be going for where that'd fit, and of course you might find such a PC stuck fighting a professional combatant like a ganger, mob soldier, etc.  But you won't find that happening often, not unless you're an idiot of a player who refuses to keep a clearly non-combatant kind of runner out of close combat.  Anyway, the point I want to make on this contingency is rules don't inherently need to address exceptions to the norm.  "Ok, your runner lacks a Juicer's Strength?  And simultaneously also lacks a Ninja's agility? Fine, your DV is penalized."   Or, if you're reluctant to impose non-explicitly stated penalties (i.e. "house rules") you can work within what's explicitly provided and decree that a fat, out of shape would-be-melee-combatant just automatically is giving away circumstantial edge to everyone he swings at.
So what you're basically saying is that the system falls apart when and you think that can be written off because it's an "exception to the norm". Have you forgotten that extractions, AKA "go kidnap this non-combatant", is one of the major run archetypes? And that is to say nothing of any other scenarios where a non-combatant will fight out of panic or desperation. Why shouldn't the system be built to handle a fat nerd being forced to knife-fight a SAS commando?

An agile elven noble who is a master duelist with a rapier is just as equally deadly as a bulked up troll merc who has mastered his use of an axe.
All that was represented in previous editions by both strength and net hits contributing to melee damage; both the raw force and how you apply it matters. By removing strength from melee damage, 6e does away with the importance of raw force.
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