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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #135 on: <07-16-19/1111:31> »
Are you saying you do not have an increased glitch chance when the 1 and 2 are glitches?
No. Because that wasn't what we were talking about.

What we WERE talking about is your statement: "the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching."

And I posted numbers to prove that is wrong. That every jump of 2 dice your glitch chance goes down even under this Edge use.

Again. Are you claiming my posted 'glitch chances if 1s and 2s both count' chart is fake news? Or do you acknowledge my evidence that your claim is erroneous?
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Lormyr

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« Reply #136 on: <07-16-19/1117:49> »
I agree that there are a lot of problems, at least with the QSR rules.

Man if I was a customer who purchased a beginners box with the QSR, then later found out how much of it was incorrect compared to the CRB, I'd be incredibly furious.

It's weird for me to say this, but in this case the math doesn't really matter. 

The salient point is that this specific mechanic is an infamously, and hilariously terrible "Frag You" kind of mechanic that should have been left back in the '90s.

This. Regardless of the exact math probability (again, I am not that guy) it creates, this sort of mechanic is pretty much only frustrating.

I don't think you understood my question.

What does being "heroic" have to do with Shadowrun?

It's a subjective question based entirely on play style. Objectively 5th edition had such actions listed as a way to regain Edge, so I would say that some amount of heroism is an assumed part of the game/setting.

"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #137 on: <07-16-19/1120:10> »
I agree that there are a lot of problems, at least with the QSR rules.

Man if I was a customer who purchased a beginners box with the QSR, then later found out how much of it was incorrect compared to the CRB, I'd be incredibly furious.
To be fair: They're QSR. They always had significant differences with CRB. Not just cutting things out, but also changing rules. I'd be more pissed the gear cards are wrong, and I really hope there will be actual printable digital replacements for those.

(By the way: The Edge action is Pre, so that makes it really risky given the expense... I'd rather Post make the enemy reroll a lot.)
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Katanarchist

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« Reply #138 on: <07-16-19/1124:20> »
You can reroll all your failures for 4 Edge, or turn 2 4s into 5s.
Sorry, are you saying that on a single roll, you can spend four Edge to add +1 to the results of two dice? Wouldn't that be two separate expenditures of Edge?
You're allowed to do the same Boost multiple times in one go. E.g. 2 Edge to reroll two of your own dice. Or spend 2 Edge to reroll two of your enemy's dice. Can't mix those two though.
That is good to know, because it's not really clear from the QSR.

Finstersang

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« Reply #139 on: <07-16-19/1125:20> »

With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.

It's weird for me to say this, but in this case the math doesn't really matter. 

The salient point is that this specific mechanic is an infamously, and hilariously terrible "Frag You" kind of mechanic that should have been left back in the '90s.

I beg to differ on that as well. First: The math is wrong, as Marcus seems to be under the impression that a glitch is constituted by rolling more ones than hits. That is not the case, you (still) glitch when more than half of the dice rolled turn up as a one. The bigger the dice pool, the more ones are needed, and the lower the chance to glitch, generally speaking*. Getting hit with that Edge Action doesnīt change that.

Second: I seriously donīt get whatīs so icky about this. Making others more prone to glitch is an interesting option for mischievous players (or GMs), especially from a narrative perspective. As a little quasi-houserule, Iīd probably require the players to give a little description on how they plan to make their opposition slip up: "I try to subversively weave in some keywords about the murder case in my fast talk, and hope that the suspect accidentaly blurbs out something that only the real killer would know." Hell, if I really like the explanation, I might even lower the cost. With that price tag, you wonīt see this Edge use very often anyways. Itīs rather overpriced and risky, considering that it has to be declared before the roll.

Besides being overpriced: Itīs a fun idea, honestly. As a reminder, glitches usually arenīt catastrophic, TPK failures. I can also see some qualities and perks that interact with this specific Egde use alone. F.i. the SR6 version of the trickster Mentor spirit might offer a discount on this Edge use... (itīs likely just the old bonus to con tests. But hey, maybe my houseruled version will work differently ;D)

*Side note: Itīs true though that an even dice pool has a slightly higher chance to produce a glitch than an uneven one with one die less. Itīs a tiny little flaw in the way Glitches work that mostly affects small dice pools. Fun fact: An observant player once pointed this out at my table, so I offered him the option to voluntarily reduce his even dice pool by one, if heīs really so anxious about glitching. He declined. And glitched :P
« Last Edit: <07-16-19/1144:12> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Marcus

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« Reply #140 on: <07-16-19/1132:57> »
Are you saying you do not have an increased glitch chance when the 1 and 2 are glitches?
No. Because that wasn't what we were talking about.

What we WERE talking about is your statement: "the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching."

And I posted numbers to prove that is wrong. That every jump of 2 dice your glitch chance goes down even under this Edge use.

Again. Are you claiming my posted 'glitch chances if 1s and 2s both count' chart is fake news? Or do you acknowledge my evidence that your claim is erroneous?

My understanding from the what discussed in the early podcasts was if your glitches exceed your success in 6e then you glitch. I don't have access to the 6 CRB, so it is in fact impossible for me to review the definition of glitch in it. Based upon my understanding what I'm saying is true.

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #141 on: <07-16-19/1152:55> »
Okay so you simply decided not to tell us you were using a completely different definition of what a glitch is. Check.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #142 on: <07-16-19/1154:59> »

With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.

It's weird for me to say this, but in this case the math doesn't really matter. 

The salient point is that this specific mechanic is an infamously, and hilariously terrible "Frag You" kind of mechanic that should have been left back in the '90s.

It’s a mechanic that fits in card or board game, where it’s all about screwing over others for fun. RPGs steal fun mechanics aren’t solid. Point and Nelson laugh is good in board games, not RPGs.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #143 on: <07-16-19/1156:34> »
Quote from: p2 QSR
GLITCHES
When more than half the results on a test are 1s, the
result is a glitch. A glitch means something goes wrong.
A glitch isn’t catastrophic, however. Think of glitches as
opportunities for gamemasters and players to narrate
how an action had an unexpected result, complication,
or embarrassment, even if it succeeded. In fact, it is possible
to succeed at a test by meeting the threshold and
still have a glitch. This would mean the player succeeds
in the task, but something unexpected also happened. It
is up to the gamemaster (or the player, if the gamemaster
allows) to describe what the complication is.
As for p44 of CRB: That's under NDA.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #144 on: <07-16-19/1211:19> »
"Half the results," and not "half the dice?"

There is the point of confusion.

It is not too far out of the realm of possibility that people will interpret "results" to mean Hits and Glitches, with the rationalization that if they meant "dice," they would have written dice.

With that interpretation (and I am not claiming it is a correct interpretation) a roll with 1 Hit and 2 Glitches is a Glitch, regardless of the number of dice rolled.

Looks like the first job of the Errata team right there.
« Last Edit: <07-16-19/1215:28> by Iron Serpent Prince »

Finstersang

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« Reply #145 on: <07-16-19/1229:33> »
"Half the results," and not "half the dice?"

There is the point of confusion.

It is not too far out of the realm of possibility that people will interpret "results" to mean Hits and Glitches, with the rationalization that if they meant "dice," they would have written dice.

With that interpretation (and I am not claiming it is a correct interpretation) a roll with 1 Hit and 2 Glitches is a Glitch, regardless of the number of dice rolled.

Looks like the first job of the Errata team right there.

Good point. Itīs likely still meant to be the way it was before, but it can be misinterpreted, especially if you donīt know that.
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Hobbes

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« Reply #146 on: <07-16-19/1230:41> »

Second: I seriously donīt get whatīs so icky about this.

Wheaton's first law, "Don't be a dick".  This mechanic is literally a pile of "Go be a Dick" tokens for the NPCs (as played by the GM).  It's bad.  Turning an astounding Player success into failure with a couple poker chips is absolutely a Dick move.  YMMV.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #147 on: <07-16-19/1241:58> »

Second: I seriously donīt get whatīs so icky about this.

Wheaton's first law, "Don't be a dick".  This mechanic is literally a pile of "Go be a Dick" tokens for the NPCs (as played by the GM).  It's bad.  Turning an astounding Player success into failure with a couple poker chips is absolutely a Dick move.  YMMV.
Since according to QSR it's a pre-roll move, it's incredibly risky to pull against a player. I doubt I'd ever use this as GM.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #148 on: <07-16-19/1244:01> »
To be fair: They're QSR. They always had significant differences with CRB. Not just cutting things out, but also changing rules.

For historical reference, my only SR experience is with 5e onward.

Cutting stuff out? Possibly. Changing rules? Absolutely not. Inexcusable to me if you want to charge customers money for what essentially amounts to an irrelevant product. That is just my personal take, and that perception is immovably in place.

Okay so you simply decided not to tell us you were using a completely different definition of what a glitch is. Check.

While Marcus's impression was incorrect, that is a gross misrepresentation of what he said, which amounts to "according to his understanding".

Wheaton's first law, "Don't be a dick".  This mechanic is literally a pile of "Go be a Dick" tokens for the NPCs (as played by the GM).  It's bad.  Turning an astounding Player success into failure with a couple poker chips is absolutely a Dick move.  YMMV.

100%.

Even in the hands of responsible GM's it's still frustrating. In the hands of vindictive types (you've all had them as GM's before, they flourish at cons), I expect it to be used to ensure players (not characters, big difference) suffer.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #149 on: <07-16-19/1252:06> »
As for different rules, I don't see the problem since the Beginner Box is still a stand-alone product, and you can still use all of its non-rule materials in a full game.

While Marcus's impression was incorrect, that is a gross misrepresentation of what he said, which amounts to "according to his understanding".
When someone insists on continuing to argue based on a flawed understanding while completely aware he's the only one with that understanding, plus while ignoring attempts to figure out what his claims are based on, it's not my representation of their acts that I find relevant. And since once again my attempts to offer rule quotes and calculations have been spat on, I give on wasting my time on it.
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