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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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Banshee

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« Reply #120 on: <07-16-19/0757:26> »
Anyway, a thing I read here once is that grenades (especially high-explosive ones), when brought up against the Barrier rules, can not only destroy nearly every cubicle in its blast radius, it can also blow apart cheap walls and even flooring.

So the question of, "Do you really want to cause indiscriminate property damage?" will cause people to pack flash-bangs instead. Or just save grenades for the Really Dangerous Stuff.

Don't count on that being a factor.

While all of the GMs I have ever played under (regardless of rules system) have, at the very least, a working knowledge of the rules the vast majority do not know drek about "the real world."

Bear in mind, must people get their knowledge from the movies where kitchen cabinets are bulletproof.

Unless the 6e rules blattantly, and in plain language, declare that grenades cause catastrophic collateral damage, it will hardly be enforced.  I mean, I often come across GMs who swear that standard hollow "stick" build dryway walls stop bullets.

total tangent ...

amen ... bugs me to no fraggin end when players want to try and break in somewhere using the HVAC duct or sewers, etc ... not fraggin possible!!!! on the flipside though I have used  my real world knowledge to break a few GM's when I have had the chance to play by bypassing a security door by going through the wall right next to it (just need them to look up the barrier ratings of a standard wall vs a security door)

One of the best disguises you can have going into a place is a hardhat, a high-vis vest, and a clipboard with papers. Act like you know where you're going and what your supposed to be doing and no-one will question you. Also, AR games. No joke a friend of mine does pen-testing on facilities and had a guard demand to know what he was doing when taking pictures of their keypads. Friend paused for a moment, the said 'It's all good, caught the pikachu', and the guard let him go without any more questions.

When in doubt, just bluff like hell!

absolutely,  I have walked onto many job sites that were "under the control" of the competition and walked around talking to contractors and taking pics just because they all assumed I belonged there just because I was wearing my hard hat and high vis vest (with logos of the competition I might add)
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Katanarchist

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« Reply #121 on: <07-16-19/0926:17> »
• 1 and 2 are glitch is also bad, that means the larger the pool the higher glitch chance. Glitching isn't heroic and winning by an enemy glitch isn't any better.
What does that have to do with Shadowrun?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #122 on: <07-16-19/1002:33> »
11 dice: 1/8 glitch chance with glitch with twos. 13: 1/10. Seems like the glitch chance doesn't get bigger with a bigger dicepool even when that Edge Boost is used.

Edit: Ripped some data from my Accuracy table, since hitting a TN equal to >pool/2 and hitting a glitch with 1s and 2s counting for glitches are the same.
1 dice: 1/3.00 chance to glitch
2 dice: 1/9.00 chance to glitch
3 dice: 1/3.86 chance to glitch
4 dice: 1/9.00 chance to glitch
5 dice: 1/4.76 chance to glitch
6 dice: 1/9.99 chance to glitch
7 dice: 1/5.77 chance to glitch
8 dice: 1/11.37 chance to glitch
9 dice: 1/6.90 chance to glitch
10 dice: 1/13.06 chance to glitch
11 dice: 1/8.19 chance to glitch
12 dice: 1/15.05 chance to glitch
13 dice: 1/9.66 chance to glitch
14 dice: 1/17.36 chance to glitch
15 dice: 1/11.33 chance to glitch
16 dice: 1/20.02 chance to glitch
17 dice: 1/13.25 chance to glitch
18 dice: 1/23.07 chance to glitch
19 dice: 1/15.44 chance to glitch
20 dice: 1/26.57 chance to glitch
21 dice: 1/17.95 chance to glitch

So as you can see, for odd amounts the glitch chance lessens and for even amounts as well. Just don't compare odd amounts to even amounts.
« Last Edit: <07-16-19/1027:54> by Michael Chandra »
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Marcus

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« Reply #123 on: <07-16-19/1016:51> »

Iīll stop right here, because this is assumption is really worth talking about.

Just for the record that's not an assumption. It's a statement of fact. There may be other uses that are better. But this is stated use, and it's bad.


First of all: While the Cap of 2 Edge per round is an absolutely catastrophic design decision/editing error/editing error thatīs sold as a design decision (see my arguments above), thereīs absolutely nothing wrong with limiting Edge pools to 7. Itīs an incentive to spend Edge instead of putting in the bank forever to unload it en masse in situations that are totally removed from the situations that helped you earn them. Unlike the limit of 2 Edge per round, you will almost never lose an Edge Token because of the limit of 7 in total, as long as you keep spending your Edge. Even if you play a (norm-)human Edgelord that starts the battle with 7 Edge, you can just spend a couple of Edge tokens right away, f.i. to increase your initiative.     
     
Now: How valuable is one Edge Token? Just like you, Marcus, I really wasnīt a big fan of the system when I first saw the list of effects that was circulating online. Some of the more expensive Edge uses looked interesting, but especially the default "1 Edge to reroll one die" option looks very measly. Mathematically, itīs equivalent to just +1 die, and even a little bit worse.

Then the QSR came out and I couldnīt help but have a peak at the mess. Call it morbid curiosity  :P And what can I say, there really is a lot of issues with the QSR, but one thing surprised me: Itīs explicitly stated that this "default" option can also be used to reroll an opponentīs die in an opposed test. Yes, including rolled hits. And that makes a huge difference.

  • First, letīs look at this strictly mathematically: On average, you have 1 Hit per 3 dice, so rerolling a hit means that itīs more or less equivalent to 3 a -3 dice pool modifier. But wait, your opponent could score another hit on the reroll, so thereīs a 1/3 chance that your Edge use is in vain after all. So in total, using this option to reroll a hit is about 2 dice worth. Not bad for the "default" option that doesnīt require you to safe up more than one Edge. And thatīs not to speak about stuff like glitches or rerolling wild dice!
  • Second, you can choose if and when you want to use Edge. If your opponent didnīt get enough hits to hit (or dodge) anyways, you can save up that Edge token for later.
  • Third, thereīs all the other Edge options. Yes, many of them are highly situational or even "traps" when evaluated from a purely mathematical perspective. But itīs the choice and flexibility that makes them valuable. Thereīs a reason why experienced trading card players often favour cards that let them choose between 2 mediocre effects over cards with 1 stronger effect.

So, when played right, the default option is about 2 dice worth. Sometimes, you canīt play it that way (f.i. for threshold tests), so itīs more like 1,8 dice in reality. Itīs hard to put an acurate price tag on the "choice" aspect, but Iīd say itīs roughly 1,4826102. So there it is: In total, one point of Edge equals 3,2826102 worth of dice pool modifiers  ;D

OK, jokes aside. IMO, the individual uses of Edges are worth much more than one might think at a first glance or from a purely statistical perspective. The big flaw with the Edge system is the limit of 2 Edge per round.   


To be clear you agree that there are a variety of issue with 6e and as far as we know 2 edge per round appears to be as intended and that fact is problem? So from where I'm sitting that means you agree that what I'm saying is correct. We lack a true factual basis to make a reasonable decision concerning 6e.

• 1 and 2 are glitch is also bad, that means the larger the pool the higher glitch chance. Glitching isn't heroic and winning by an enemy glitch isn't any better.
What does that have to do with Shadowrun?

6e is set to be the next edition of Shadowrun. When you sit at the table to play 6e this may well happen at your table while you are playing Shadowrun. Sense the early days of Storyteller it's been widely understood that having this sort of mechanic is terrible game design, I can get into math of why, but I doubt it will interest you. If you care about Shadowrun, then seeing something that famously bad game design becoming a part of it should concern you.

11 dice: 1/8 glitch chance with glitch with twos. 13: 1/10. Seems like the glitch chance doesn't get bigger with a bigger dicepool even when that Edge Boost is used.

With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #124 on: <07-16-19/1033:03> »
11 dice: 1/8 glitch chance with glitch with twos. 13: 1/10. Seems like the glitch chance doesn't get bigger with a bigger dicepool even when that Edge Boost is used.

With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.
I strongly suggest you reread how Glitches work. 'The higher number' has nothing to do with it.

But this is stated use
Except that, as was already stated, the 'stated use' is that you reroll A die. Not one of yours. A die. Which means you can also go for 2/3 chance to cost your opponent a hit, which my players actually did. (They prefer the 2 Edge for turning a 4 into a 5 though, since that's a 100% certainty.)
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #125 on: <07-16-19/1041:13> »
    No, the cap is 7 edge held at once, not 7 edge earned in total over the course of an encounter. So long as you keep spending edge, you can keep earning back up to the hard cap.

    Given the complaints about how "abusive" edge actions are, I'd have thought you'd have welcomed a ceiling on how much edge you're allowed to have at once. 7 edge is a perfect value to prevent healing 2 boxes of physical damage at once, for example.  Imagine what'd it'd be like dropping 16-20 edge at once.

    I said many of them are bad, and what I said is true.

    I'll go over the list again for those new to the conversation.
    • 1 Edge to Re-roll one failure is a trap. 67% of the time that will be a wasted point. It's a bad option to give players.

    Let’s go over the full list. First off, While you can’t use more than one edge effect at a time, the rules imply and the examples out right show that you can spend multiple edge to activate the same affect multiple times. I.e. spending one edge to re-roll one die is really spend X edge to reroll X dice..

    But to the full list, not just a shortened one from the rigger dossier.

    1 edge
    Spend One edge to re-roll any one die from any roll.
    Add +3 to your initiative roll.
    Move up one stage in initiative order.

    2 edge
    Give one ally a single edge point.
    Negate the use of an edge point.
    Add a +1 to the role of any one die.

    3 edge
    Buy one automatic hit.
    Heal one box of stun damage.

    4 edge
    Re-roll all failed dice for one roll.
    Add your edge attribute as bonus dice to a roll, and 6’s explode.
    Heal one box of physical damage.

    5 edge
    Target glitches on to us as well as ones.
    Create special effect.

    There are a lot of options, and that could lead to choice paralysis especially when the system is new. I have a feeling though that most players will settle into their preferred edge use and stick to that.[/list]

    Edit: Apologies for the messiness, but editing at work is difficult.
    « Last Edit: <07-16-19/1044:29> by Moonshine Fox »

    Finstersang

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    « Reply #126 on: <07-16-19/1043:48> »
    To be clear you agree that there are a variety of issue with 6e and as far as we know 2 edge per round appears to be as intended and that fact is problem? So from where I'm sitting that means you agree that what I'm saying is correct. We lack a true factual basis to make a reasonable decision concerning 6e.

    I agree that there are a lot of problems, at least with the QSR rules.

    I especially agree that the limit of 2 Edge per round (as opposed to per turn or even per action) is a terrible design choice IF it even is a design choice and not an error because someone somewhere down the line mixed up "turn" and "round" or misinterpreted some notes from the playtesting sessions. This damn limit is my number one concern (so far), and I already did multiple, lenghthy posts that detail why this rule, if itīs actually RAI, would wreck the whole premise of the Edge system.

    However, I donīt agree with the notion that the Edge system as a whole is a bad idea and I donīt think that Edge is not powerfull enough to make an impact. Even when you just look at the "default" use for 1 point of Edge.
    « Last Edit: <07-16-19/1048:44> by Finstersang »
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    Michael Chandra

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    « Reply #127 on: <07-16-19/1047:36> »

    There are a lot of options, and that could lead to choice paralysis especially when the system is new. I have a feeling though that most players will settle into their preferred edge use and stick to that.
    In the end, whether you're Risk-Averse or willing to Risk It All plays a big roll, er role. You can reroll all your failures for 4 Edge, or turn 2 4s into 5s. You can use 2 Edge to make your opponent reroll for 1/9 chance of not losing a hit, or go for that certain bonus at average smaller benefit.

    Meanwhile, Edge-passing is useful when you score more Edge than you need but another player definitely needs the boost. Initiative is useful for cutting off your enemies. So there's a lot of neat tactical options here.
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    Hobbes

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    « Reply #128 on: <07-16-19/1052:43> »

    With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.

    It's weird for me to say this, but in this case the math doesn't really matter. 

    The salient point is that this specific mechanic is an infamously, and hilariously terrible "Frag You" kind of mechanic that should have been left back in the '90s. 

    Katanarchist

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    « Reply #129 on: <07-16-19/1056:06> »
    6e is set to be the next edition of Shadowrun. When you sit at the table....
    I don't think you understood my question.

    What does being "heroic" have to do with Shadowrun?

    Marcus

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    « Reply #130 on: <07-16-19/1056:35> »
    11 dice: 1/8 glitch chance with glitch with twos. 13: 1/10. Seems like the glitch chance doesn't get bigger with a bigger dicepool even when that Edge Boost is used.

    With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.
    I strongly suggest you reread how Glitches work. 'The higher number' has nothing to do with it.

    So long as the higher number is exceeds Glitch threshold, which it's still much more likely to do under the edge use the logic holds.

    But this is stated use
    Except that, as was already stated, the 'stated use' is that you reroll A die. Not one of yours. A die. Which means you can also go for 2/3 chance to cost your opponent a hit, which my players actually did. (They prefer the 2 Edge for turning a 4 into a 5 though, since that's a 100% certainty.)

    The flaw in your logic is of course you won't always be making opposed rolls. Like when you're rolling soak for example.

    To be clear you agree that there are a variety of issue with 6e and as far as we know 2 edge per round appears to be as intended and that fact is problem? So from where I'm sitting that means you agree that what I'm saying is correct. We lack a true factual basis to make a reasonable decision concerning 6e.

    I agree that there are a lot of problems, at least with the QSR rules.

    I especially agree that the limit of 2 Edge per round (as opposed to per turn or even per action) is a terrible design choice IF it even is a design choice and not an error because someone somewhere down the line mixed up "turn" and "round" or misinterpreted some notes from the playtesting sessions. This damn limit is my number one concern (so far), and I already did multiple, lenghthy posts that detail why this rule, if itīs actually RAI, would wreck the whole premise of the Edge system.

    However, I donīt agree with the notion that the Edge system as a whole is a bad idea and I donīt think that Edge is not powerfull enough to make an impact. Even when you just look at the "default" use for 1 point of Edge.

    I do think edge is bad system idea. But that is not at issue and it's not what I'm arguing. I said we had no factual basis to make rational choice about 6e, do you agree or disagree with that?

    Fox were you addressing my argument? Or just restating?
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    Michael Chandra

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    « Reply #131 on: <07-16-19/1058:37> »
    11 dice: 1/8 glitch chance with glitch with twos. 13: 1/10. Seems like the glitch chance doesn't get bigger with a bigger dicepool even when that Edge Boost is used.

    With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.
    I strongly suggest you reread how Glitches work. 'The higher number' has nothing to do with it.

    So long as the higher number is exceeds Glitch threshold, which it's still much more likely to do under the edge use the logic holds.


    For the record: You are claiming that the chart with glitch-odds I posted is a lie?
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    Katanarchist

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    « Reply #132 on: <07-16-19/1100:59> »
    You can reroll all your failures for 4 Edge, or turn 2 4s into 5s.
    Sorry, are you saying that on a single roll, you can spend four Edge to add +1 to the results of two dice? Wouldn't that be two separate expenditures of Edge?

    Marcus

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    « Reply #133 on: <07-16-19/1104:11> »
    You asked:

    • 1 and 2 are glitch is also bad, that means the larger the pool the higher glitch chance. Glitching isn't heroic and winning by an enemy glitch isn't any better.
    What does that have to do with Shadowrun?

    And I told you what my statement has to do with Shadowrun. You can choose to be heroic or not. If you're asking Heroism is very much part of Shadowrun. If you have question on that topic, i'd suggest reviewing the Hooding book. It's a good read. Heroic or not what I said is true. It's well known as terrible game design

    11 dice: 1/8 glitch chance with glitch with twos. 13: 1/10. Seems like the glitch chance doesn't get bigger with a bigger dicepool even when that Edge Boost is used.

    With the edge use active on a roll with an 18 die pool on Average you will get 6 Success and 6 Glitches, the odds of the Glitch option being the higher number is very good, and the higher your die pool the higher the chance that one of those two values will be higher then other only increases. In short when that edge option is used the higher the pool the higher the chance of Glitching.
    I strongly suggest you reread how Glitches work. 'The higher number' has nothing to do with it.

    So long as the higher number is exceeds Glitch threshold, which it's still much more likely to do under the edge use the logic holds.


    For the record: You are claiming that the chart with glitch-odds I posted is a lie?
    Are you saying you do not have an increased glitch chance when the 1 and 2 are glitches?

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    Michael Chandra

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    « Reply #134 on: <07-16-19/1106:07> »
    You can reroll all your failures for 4 Edge, or turn 2 4s into 5s.
    Sorry, are you saying that on a single roll, you can spend four Edge to add +1 to the results of two dice? Wouldn't that be two separate expenditures of Edge?
    You're allowed to do the same Boost multiple times in one go. E.g. 2 Edge to reroll two of your own dice. Or spend 2 Edge to reroll two of your enemy's dice. Can't mix those two though.
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