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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #75 on: <07-15-19/1112:32> »
Long live defensive actions. Definitely going to make good use of those with higher-PR enemies.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #76 on: <07-15-19/1133:43> »
Long live defensive actions. Definitely going to make good use of those with higher-PR enemies.

I expect Block and Dodge will get used a lot on fighting characters, though Full Defense is only likely to see the light of day when grossly outnumbered/outmatched or on characters with 4+ initiative dice.

It just makes melee characters even rougher.

- You are the most exposed character type.
- You need actions to move and defend yourself.
- If you move to get in range to attack you can't Avoid Incoming to get away from AoE (and a grenade will kill you, period).

Since "we" are apparently just unable to allow a defense test against non-spell AoE (good lord people why!?), the very least they could have done was allow Avoid Incoming to be used once per round even after previous movement not from that action.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #77 on: <07-15-19/1205:20> »
Iím pretty much banning grenades until I can come up with a house rule that makes them usable. I donít know why they are so obsessed with them. Grenades doing more damage than a full auto 50cal hitting you with multiple net hits and thatís with the grenade landing  a few meters away. Apparently you are throwing mini nukes at people. No defense test but you can minor action to move away. To which I say what happens when they shoot the second grenade.

So at least melee characters wonít have to worry about saving a minor to deal with that in my game.

Lormyr

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« Reply #78 on: <07-15-19/1212:24> »
I do not mind the huge damage rating as much as I mind characters not getting a defense test to avoid them. That is all of unbalanced, unfair, and unfun, none of which are traits I look for in my gaming.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #79 on: <07-15-19/1237:42> »
I do not mind the huge damage rating as much as I mind characters not getting a defense test to avoid them. That is all of unbalanced, unfair, and unfun, none of which are traits I look for in my gaming.

Both bother me. I donít want pcs doing massive damage with 1 net hit. I donít want the pcs to eat massive damage with 1 net hit. So even if a dodge was provided itís too much. Iím assuming there is some threshold to land it like in 5e which will be fairly easily obtainable by small amounts of investment.

And yes not getting a defense test just isnít fun, it also doesnít make much sense  small amounts of distance from a grenade greatly increases your chance to not Only survive but come out unscathed.  That kind of distance that can be abstracted to standard defensive maneuvering. My instinct is to 1/2 the damage standard defense test and allow net hits to scale damage up like normal. If you miss the person takes 1/2 damage for the range bracket they are in from the explosion or hell just nothing. Grenades donít hit everything in the blast.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #80 on: <07-15-19/1254:31> »
...Iím assuming there is some threshold to land it like in 5e...

You'll want to abandon that assumption.

EDIT:
As I said upthread: yes you can potentially suffer that first DV value, but you probably won't.  The 2nd and 3rd DV values are what's really relevant in a practical sense.
« Last Edit: <07-15-19/1306:31> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #81 on: <07-15-19/1335:21> »
It's all about scatter now. A grenade thrown from a competent thrower is highly unlikely to miss the intended target. The main target (and anyone within their arm's reach) will take 16, anyone within 3m of them 12, and anyone within 20m 8.

They are still dirt cheap too, so that character with at least 4 minor actions is pretty much guaranteed to kill the guy of their choice for 300 nuyen.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #82 on: <07-15-19/1345:07> »
Well, if you're close enough to be reliably on target, you're close enough to be blowing yourself up as well.  Generally you want to throw grenades a good ways AWAY from yourself :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #83 on: <07-15-19/1353:10> »
Note to self: Consider allowing Intercept with an Edge action to fire a grenade out of the hand when throwing.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #84 on: <07-15-19/1359:12> »
Well, if you're close enough to be reliably on target, you're close enough to be blowing yourself up as well.  Generally you want to throw grenades a good ways AWAY from yourself :D

Truth! But you can make a specialist out of chargen that will statistically break even on the scatter chart at medium range. 21 dice (11 agility, 7 athletics, 1 reflex recorder, 2 specialization) averages 7 hits vs. the 2d6 scatter average.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

BeCareful

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« Reply #85 on: <07-15-19/1403:17> »
So, I'm glad there's a rule about Edge abuse, and even though I also don't know how grenades and avoiding them work in 6, I know how they work in 5. Here's hoping all the ways to deal with them will be in 6 Core (and it sounds as if they will be).

Anyway, a thing I read here once is that grenades (especially high-explosive ones), when brought up against the Barrier rules, can not only destroy nearly every cubicle in its blast radius, it can also blow apart cheap walls and even flooring.

So the question of, "Do you really want to cause indiscriminate property damage?" will cause people to pack flash-bangs instead. Or just save grenades for the Really Dangerous Stuff.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #86 on: <07-15-19/1407:57> »
yeah... if you want to hyperspecialize in grenade throwing, I don't see an issue.  Anything you can count on that many hits in OUGHT to work... but with grenades you're STILL gambling after hyperspecialization.

And it's a crazy thing to hyperspecialize in anyway... it's so situationally relevant.  It's not the sort of thing you can rely on anyway in "normal" circumstances.  Hello, chemsniffer rules.  Hello, Heat rules.  There are far more shadowrun-friendly tactics to hyperspecialize in.
« Last Edit: <07-15-19/1417:41> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #87 on: <07-15-19/1425:11> »
But are they as fun!? :p

I certainly wouldn't recommend it across the board, but having one such character would be a blast. Blast. . .get it. . .I kill myself.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #88 on: <07-15-19/1428:00> »
...Iím assuming there is some threshold to land it like in 5e...

You'll want to abandon that assumption.

EDIT:
As I said upthread: yes you can potentially suffer that first DV value, but you probably won't.  The 2nd and 3rd DV values are what's really relevant in a practical sense.

Even if itís hard to get to a dice pool to counter the point blank effect 12 for close is just crazy. A heavy machine gun on full auto needs 3 net hits to get there. Grenade a few meters away, or 10 50 cal rounds center mass. Which is worse.

Seriously why does the design team thing grenades are the most dangerous weapon in the universe.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #89 on: <07-15-19/1429:39> »
Anyway, a thing I read here once is that grenades (especially high-explosive ones), when brought up against the Barrier rules, can not only destroy nearly every cubicle in its blast radius, it can also blow apart cheap walls and even flooring.

So the question of, "Do you really want to cause indiscriminate property damage?" will cause people to pack flash-bangs instead. Or just save grenades for the Really Dangerous Stuff.

Don't count on that being a factor.

While all of the GMs I have ever played under (regardless of rules system) have, at the very least, a working knowledge of the rules the vast majority do not know drek about "the real world."

Bear in mind, must people get their knowledge from the movies where kitchen cabinets are bulletproof.

Unless the 6e rules blattantly, and in plain language, declare that grenades cause catastrophic collateral damage, it will hardly be enforced.  I mean, I often come across GMs who swear that standard hollow "stick" build dryway walls stop bullets.