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My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #15 on: <07-13-19/0957:53> »
Of course it's not. It's always grey in Seattle.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Lormyr

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« Reply #16 on: <07-13-19/1015:55> »
But again, so what. The operative word there is "Less", not "Realistic". Even in 5e what were arguably the most effective (certainly popular, at least) melee weapons, Shock gloves and Monofilament Whip, were already ignoring STR.  When it comes to game mechanics, I literally don't care if that feature in 6e is extended from 5e's most popular weapons to all weapons. It doesn't bother me the way it seems to bother other people who are so vocal about it.

And it is perfectly acceptable that it doesn't bother you. No one's playstyle is right or wrong. For me personally, I am not super concerned about "close to life realism", I am more concerned about "does it make sense for the relevant game mechanics?" realism. Shock gloves worked for me because it wasn't about the force of the blow so much as the volts of electricity being conducted into the victim, and monofilament whips not so much about force but about severing molecules it touches. Your sentiment is just not shared by many, at least of those whom have been vocal here to this point.

(Spoiler: STR won't be viable as a dump stat for a melee weapon user anyway, so that's part of why I don't care about the 1 STR pixie "problem")

Unless I overlooked something important it's only because of being grappled being terrible for life expectancy due to lost defense dice. Doesn't matter much if you are able to avoid being hit in the first place.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #17 on: <07-13-19/1021:11> »
As y'all might remember, in SR5 I had a significant list of possible houserules extracted from debates, even though I disagreed with some. Unfortunately, due to the vitriol tossed around in the SR6 debates, it's impossible to look at the reasonable discontent and talk about what kind of optional rules could make them feel more comfortable.

I hope that after launch we'll get a lot of discussions here that people can post their experiences into, so we can figure some things out. Clearly for some they do want tweaks, so then we can discuss what tweaks would still be balanced in their own way. But given the lack of info and too many angry shouts drowning out any reasonable objections, I can't find any motivation to try for the next two months. :-\
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #18 on: <07-13-19/1025:35> »
But again, so what. The operative word there is "Less", not "Realistic". Even in 5e what were arguably the most effective (certainly popular, at least) melee weapons, Shock gloves and Monofilament Whip, were already ignoring STR.  When it comes to game mechanics, I literally don't care if that feature in 6e is extended from 5e's most popular weapons to all weapons. It doesn't bother me the way it seems to bother other people who are so vocal about it.

And it is perfectly acceptable that it doesn't bother you. No one's playstyle is right or wrong. For me personally, I am not super concerned about "close to life realism", I am more concerned about "does it make sense for the relevant game mechanics?" realism. Shock gloves worked for me because it wasn't about the force of the blow so much as the volts of electricity being conducted into the victim, and monofilament whips not so much about force but about severing molecules it touches. Your sentiment is just not shared by many, at least of those whom have been vocal here to this point.

And arguably, just as monofilament whips are more about the inherent cutting power of mono-molecular chains, a combat axe can also be more about the balanced weight and (insert technobabble here) cutting edge/alloy of the head.  Yes, granted, seeing equivalency here is willfully picking a side to be on in the suspension of disbelief.  But consider if I'm CHOOSING a side to be on, it's a bridgeable gap (at least for me, since I bridged it...). As far as I'm concerned, if someone else is CHOOSING to not be able to reconcile that within their suspension of disbelief, well that's obviously a choice they're willfully making as well.

Quote
(Spoiler: STR won't be viable as a dump stat for a melee weapon user anyway, so that's part of why I don't care about the 1 STR pixie "problem")

Unless I overlooked something important it's only because of being grappled being terrible for life expectancy due to lost defense dice. Doesn't matter much if you are able to avoid being hit in the first place.

You overlooked something important.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #19 on: <07-13-19/1028:19> »
I'll admit, for me, seeing a massive bruiser like a troll murtalating everyone with a pool cue while the wired elf can barely knock someone out with one breaks suspension of disbelief for me. Doesn't bother me for movies, but for games, having only STR factor into melee just tastes bad. Muscles are more then just raw power. Speed, flexibility, reaction time, all play a roll in armed hand to hand. SR does a better job them most showing that, but it still falls short. Given same skill level, the bruiser troll and the wire elf should really be doing about similer damage with their improvised staves. The troll sure is relaying all his muscles power to knock people out, but the elf is using his muscles speed to apply force in the same way via basic physics (mass x acceleration).

Plus there's factoring in the material that the weapon is made out of. The above pool-ball-pokey-stick isn't going to be able to take the full force of the trolls strength. It'll snap with the first blow, only dealing damage up to the point it breaks. Any strength force beyond that is wasted for anything other then some scratches down the poor sods body. Personally I always felt melee weapons needed a range of strength that applied to them. A minimum to represent how strong you needed to be to even use the weapon effectively, up to a max were beyond you hit the point of weapon breakage/over-penetration. And that doesn't even take into account weapons that rely more on speed and precision then brute force to do their job. A rapier or whip would favor the wire elf more then the bruiser troll. Putting your fist in someones face does tend to make more use of raw muscle mass then weapon combat (though weapons should still tend to give advantage of some sort). Martial arts rules in a later combat book will probably shake that up too as so many of them rely more on precision then strength, or just turn your opponents strength into your weapon.

We have been told that, while strength isn't factoring into melee weapon damage, it's still used in hand-to-hand in other ways we haven't seen yet. Hopefully in a way that makes it's application more flexible and the various types of melee fightn' can be pulled to the fore rather then just bruisin.

Just my 2 nuyen from the other side of the valley.
Let me make my bean-pole stave-spinning wire-rider frag it!

Lormyr

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« Reply #20 on: <07-13-19/1033:36> »
But consider if I'm CHOOSING a side to be on, it's a bridgeable gap (at least for me, since I bridged it...). As far as I'm concerned, if someone else is CHOOSING to not be able to reconcile that within their suspension of disbelief, well that's obviously a choice they're willfully making as well.

You're not wrong. Preferences are preferences. Speaking for me personally, will it stop me from playing 6th? No. Do I think it's completely ridiculous and terrible game design? Absolutely.

Quote from: Stainless Steel Devil Rat
link=topic=29528.msg519019#msg519019 date=1563024899
You overlooked something important.

Chandra PM'd me what I missed. I am not sure I find it to be a huge deal, but it is certainly potentially inconvenient. It mostly just means that, mechanically, there is no reason to use a melee weapon other than unarmed ever to me.
« Last Edit: <07-13-19/1049:29> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Lormyr

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« Reply #21 on: <07-13-19/1040:21> »
We have been told that, while strength isn't factoring into melee weapon damage, it's still used in hand-to-hand in other ways we haven't seen yet. Hopefully in a way that makes it's application more flexible and the various types of melee fightn' can be pulled to the fore rather then just bruisin.

Speaking from my personal perspective (one of a min/maxer):

1). Strength is barely useful for a weapon user, and then only to avoid one combat maneuver that will cost you a major action to remedy.

2). Strength is great if you plan to be a grapple junky, as the maneuver is quite good both in terms of debuff and crowd control.

3). Strength is great for unarmed builds, only if you plan to hyper specialize in it.

4). Adepts who hyper specialize are an exception to #1, and make #3 even more ridiculous.

A #1 adept will have a damage value of 11 with melee weapons, and eventually tons of attack dice due to improved ability and weapon foci. A #3 adept runs 2-3 more DV, but will lose out on the weapon foci attack dice. These figures are true to out of chargen to after your first few runs. It will just continue to increase as karma accrues.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #22 on: <07-13-19/1041:04> »
I am not sure I find it to be a huge deal, but it is certainly potentially inconvenient. It mostly just means that, mechanically, there is no reason to use a melee weapon other than unarmed ever to me.

If you're a big scary troll or cybered up big guy, yeah pretty much picking up a weapon just makes you less dangerous.  THAT is something I agree is problematic.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #23 on: <07-13-19/1041:51> »
(Spoiler: STR won't be viable as a dump stat for a melee weapon user anyway, so that's part of why I don't care about the 1 STR pixie "problem")

When does the NDA get lifted?   :P

I respectfully disagree.  I don't know that the mechanical difference between a Str 1 Katana user and a Str 4 Katana user is mechanically meaningful enough to scrounge up 3 stat points, at least *just* for what Strength does for a Weapon user.  Very possible I missed something somewhere though. 

In any case, in actual play Strength 1 Melee characters will be rare anyway so I do agree it's not going to be a real issue.  Strength Augments are cheap and physical characters will be using Strength for Athletics and "other stuff".  And most players don't like the idea of some noodle armed swordsman. 

Someone playing a character inspired by Arya or Hit-Girl may be okay with dumping Strength from a character perspective, but those characters will be uncommon.  Probably.

So I agree a Str 1 Pixie with an Axe isn't really a problem in actual play, but I disagree that weapon users get much use from a Strength investment.  Apparently I'm complicated this morning and would like to argue with someone I agree with. 

Lormyr

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« Reply #24 on: <07-13-19/1054:11> »
I respectfully disagree.  I don't know that the mechanical difference between a Str 1 Katana user and a Str 4 Katana user is mechanically meaningful enough to scrounge up 3 stat points, at least *just* for what Strength does for a Weapon user.  Very possible I missed something somewhere though.

This is where my perspective lands as well. Guns are so much better on anything but an adept, both for damage and range, that making a melee character other than a grappler, adept-weapon user, or troll/adept/troll adept unarmed user is simply strictly inferior.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #25 on: <07-13-19/1121:38> »
I am not sure I find it to be a huge deal, but it is certainly potentially inconvenient. It mostly just means that, mechanically, there is no reason to use a melee weapon other than unarmed ever to me.

If you're a big scary troll or cybered up big guy, yeah pretty much picking up a weapon just makes you less dangerous.  THAT is something I agree is problematic.

My off the cuff idea would be that if the melee weapon damage is equal to or less than the Unarmed damage, used Unarmed +1.

It kind of flattens out the curve for weapons in the hands of a brute, so I am not certain it works well.  But at least it doesn't weaken the brute, and it shouldn't let the damage get out of hand compared to the other weapons in the game.

adzling

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« Reply #26 on: <07-13-19/1202:03> »
it's clear the melee weapon damage codes are an unintended side-effect of having to crunch down the damage codes for all attacks.

with the lower damage codes the melee weapons wouldn't "fit" so they just removed strength from the equation.

it was done for no rational reason other than "gee it doesn't fit in with our new damage codes"

what should have happened is the damage codes for all weapons should have been adjusted to allow melee weapons to factor in strength.

but then that breaks the no armor part of the system.

etc.

essentially it feels like the game designers backed themselves into a corner mechanically then couldn't get out.

that's the definition of bad game design right there.


Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #27 on: <07-13-19/1230:21> »
it's clear the melee weapon damage codes are an unintended side-effect of having to crunch down the damage codes for all attacks.

with the lower damage codes the melee weapons wouldn't "fit" so they just removed strength from the equation.

it was done for no rational reason other than "gee it doesn't fit in with our new damage codes"

what should have happened is the damage codes for all weapons should have been adjusted to allow melee weapons to factor in strength.

but then that breaks the no armor part of the system.

etc.

essentially it feels like the game designers backed themselves into a corner mechanically then couldn't get out.

that's the definition of bad game design right there.

Thatís my impression as well. Once they said armor doesnít soak they backed themselves into a corner.

That being said just having strength as the dice pool stat would have solved a lot. As well as the dude above who said unarmed damage set a minimum damage for melee weapons.

Lormyr

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« Reply #28 on: <07-13-19/1238:26> »
it's clear the melee weapon damage codes are an unintended side-effect of having to crunch down the damage codes for all attacks.

with the lower damage codes the melee weapons wouldn't "fit" so they just removed strength from the equation.

it was done for no rational reason other than "gee it doesn't fit in with our new damage codes"

what should have happened is the damage codes for all weapons should have been adjusted to allow melee weapons to factor in strength.

but then that breaks the no armor part of the system.

etc.

essentially it feels like the game designers backed themselves into a corner mechanically then couldn't get out.

that's the definition of bad game design right there.

Backed themselves into a corner and doubled down on the bad design instead of making a simple tweak of either strength + close combat for attack pools, or the type/size/damage of the melee weapon you can wield being based on strength score. Either solves the issue.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #29 on: <07-13-19/1314:59> »
I respectfully disagree.  I don't know that the mechanical difference between a Str 1 Katana user and a Str 4 Katana user is mechanically meaningful enough to scrounge up 3 stat points, at least *just* for what Strength does for a Weapon user.  Very possible I missed something somewhere though.

This is where my perspective lands as well. Guns are so much better on anything but an adept, both for damage and range, that making a melee character other than a grappler, adept-weapon user, or troll/adept/troll adept unarmed user is simply strictly inferior.

That doesnít in itself bother me. Adepts imo lost their niche in 5e. Iím fine with adepts being the only way to compete with guns. Melee normally should be weaker but magic fists being able to bypass it is fine. But I do want the rules to make some degree of sense. When they donít you tend to spend hours searching for rules that donít exist. And imo is generally less fun.