NEWS

My issues with 6th edition: "suspension of disbelief" vs. "the uncanny valley"

  • 399 Replies
  • 27931 Views

Shinobi Killfist

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2584
« Reply #210 on: <07-17-19/1252:38> »
Well, for argument's sake... if 6W erred on the side of too much simplicity it's easy to house rule in whatever you feel the system needs.  I'd prefer an under-complex game to an over-complex game... it's much easier to add in spice to taste than to take it out.

I’m not seeing that it’s actually simplified much though. How is edge determination any easier than -6 dice for x. It’s look at chart, make judgment call tell player modifiers. Either -x dice or +1-2 edge.

What it sacrificed in my mind is verisimilitude.

That being said the one pass thing, decking, some
of the magic changed may be enough to get me to run it. Also a core reset is wanted by me anyways. I can’t keep up with all the books.

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #211 on: <07-17-19/1341:13> »
Besides Lormyr's list of issues, which I agree with for the most part, there is one other thing that truely bothers me. Quoting adzling,
"3). it's still riddled with almost as many editing fails, errors and poorly defined mechanics as 5e."

That, that right there bugs me to know end. It is the main part of the main reason I only get PDFs from Catalyst. Other was the CRB started to  fall apart with in a month. The setting is amazing, but we constantly have to discuss what the hell something means and if this sentence or that is fluff or crunch. And then we rarely get official responses to questions and still lack errata for a large number of books. This does not make me want to spend money on a new edition, when I want Catalyst to finish editing stuff, as I understand it, we were told would happen.

That said, will probably steal rules for Matrix and Clarification ideas for Riggers in my home games, but otherwise use 5th. Cheers!

Edited for name correction.
« Last Edit: <07-17-19/1342:55> by Rift_0f_Bladz »
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for Ĩ1 million/4 once.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9616
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #212 on: <07-17-19/1349:19> »
So far the errors appear to be much smaller in impact than vagueness rules in SR5 on average. And this time they've put an errata team on from the start, over two months ago. But we'll see in time how bad things end up.

Wish I could say more and help you be a bit optimistic, but I don't feel like getting banned and kicked out of the demo team so this is all I can say under NDA. =/ And that only because adzling already made statements about the quality.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9616
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #213 on: <07-17-19/1354:55> »
And to be honest I'm feeling rather uncomfortable as to how the debates begin to cover too much without knowing what is already fair game so I fear I'm just going to log off the forum for a while.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #214 on: <07-17-19/1452:26> »
Micheal thanks for the response, honestly. Don't go and get yourself into trouble over us. Also, honestly, there probably is not anything you could say to make me feel better about CGL or 6th Ed.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for Ĩ1 million/4 once.

Katanarchist

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 30
« Reply #215 on: <07-17-19/1815:49> »
The rest of your post is just sarcasm and does not address the points I made.
So, congratulations on your attempted humor?

lol

But for real though, is there anything more Shadowrun than the image of a completely jacked pixie on the squat rack, wearing a t-shirt that reads, "I Eat Trolls For Breakfast Protein"? That's the reality I want to simulate.

Moonshine Fox

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 589
  • Proudly serving our dragon overlords
« Reply #216 on: <07-17-19/1852:10> »
The rest of your post is just sarcasm and does not address the points I made.
So, congratulations on your attempted humor?

lol

But for real though, is there anything more Shadowrun than the image of a completely jacked pixie on the squat rack, wearing a t-shirt that reads, "I Eat Trolls For Breakfast Protein"? That's the reality I want to simulate.

All I can think about is this with that statement.

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #217 on: <07-17-19/1931:14> »
The rest of your post is just sarcasm and does not address the points I made.
So, congratulations on your attempted humor?

lol

But for real though, is there anything more Shadowrun than the image of a completely jacked pixie on the squat rack, wearing a t-shirt that reads, "I Eat Trolls For Breakfast Protein"? That's the reality I want to simulate.

haha fair 'nuff.
it's clear your tastes trend considerably more Pink Mohawk than mine ;-)

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
« Reply #218 on: <07-18-19/1129:23> »
Hot take: From the things I see so far, I donīt think that SR6īs Edge System is the "death of simulationism" or even sacrificing that much of it, apart from a handfull of very questionable decisions (most notably, that goddamn limit). And most of these issues can be fixed with relative ease (which still begs the question why these pitfalls have to be fixed by the players, tho. But thatīs a thing for another post...)

There are two ways in which the Edge system can come in conflict with the idea of simulationism: Resolution and Correlation.

By Resolution, I mean the "granularity" at which different factors of the game world are represented. Obviously, the granularity that is familiar from previous editions gets overall rougher with the Edge system. Instead of determining and adding a load of Modifiers, everything boils down to the 3 dimensions of either you or your oposition or no one getting an Edge. In Combat, you do this twice, once with AR-DR (which includes stuff like range, armor, cover, armor pen, recoil) and once for other environmental modifiers. Itīs simple, but itīs arguably pretty "Low-Res": It could be that you have 3 sources of advantage on your side, but you still get the same bonus as you would have gotten with just one of them. In these cases, the Edge system sacrifices a part of simulationism, no question.

However, you have two consider a bunch of other factors here: First, I donīt think that these situations will happen that often, partly because they cancel each other out and partly because there are still many factors that are represented by good old dice pool modifiers. And if they happen, the GM still has the authority to say "You know what? One Edge doesnīt really cut it in this case. I also add a dice pool modifier". Second, thereīs diminish return. Picture yourself shooting in dim light, with added heavy smoke, at a target thatīs in cover, all while your eyes are still burning from a tear gas shot you you received a minute ago. If you straight up stack all these modifiers and factors and add them to corresponding tests, it may sound realistic at first, until you realize that all of these modifiers have at least partially to do with how good you can see the target. The odds probably stack up so high against that youīd likely have a better chance if you were without all these modifiers, but firing with closed eyes. Itīs a big problem when you try to factor everything in that might be relevant in a given situation, and High-Simulationist system often fall in this trap. Considering all this, the "low resulution" of the Edge system is maybe not as bad compared to what we had before.

For the record: Yes, I do think that the system could and should be more "high-res", if only to adequately represent all the fringe cases without too much GM caprice. F.i, instead of the 3 states "4 higher, 4 lower, about equal", I think that the AR-DR comparison could easily handle up to six states (10 lower, 10 higher, 4 lower, 4 higher, one higher, about equal). These could be used to determine other effects, f.i. if the attacker hits on a tie or if one of the sides can use Edge at all. The devs for the upcoming Combat book would do well to evaluate some of the ideas that are floating around for additional, more detailed combat rules. But I donīt think that SR6 is "OMG literally unplayable!" just because the Core rules are more lo-res than in previous Editions.

Second: Correlation. Thatīs where the Edge system gets really icky for some out here. Thatīs understandable as well, at least on a first glance. What do i mean by this? At the core, Edge is mostly a positive or negative (If you give it to your opposition) modifier. Itīs hard to put an exact price tag on it, but most of its uses offer an effect that can be roughly translated into some kind of dice pool bonus.

However, you donīt have to use that bonus on the test for which is was granted, and thatīs whatīs raising eyebrows. I could get an Edge for my good armor and cover, but instead of using it to avoid damage, I use it on my counterattack. I could get an Edge for Hacking a Device with weak protection, but I later use it on my defense test. This leads to correlations that shouldnīt be there. Assuming that I can shoot better because I have an armored vest is ridiculous. Itīs esoteric. It totally goes against simulationism.

Or does it? Because hereīs the thing: Is it really more realistic to assume that thereīs no correlation? Having armor and cover is good for defense, sure. But it also might give you the confidence to take the risk and aim just a little bit longer instead of trying to protect your ass.  And probably even to a degree where you defense advantage shifts into an offensive advantage. Same if it goes the other way around: If you get Edge by shooting from an advantageus position, but decide to use it on a later defense test, it can be perfectly explained by either the opposition being subtly cowed by your good firing position or by the notion that you have used your little advantage to get a better look of the battlefield. Yes, itīs often not that easy to explain the exact correlation between one specific source of Edge and the test where you actually use it. But in most cases, you can at least refer to motivational or perceptional aspects to rationalize it. Edge is an abstract ressource, but that doesnīt mean that it has no connection to reality.

Arbitrarily capping this ressource at 2 points per round sure does, though  ::)
« Last Edit: <07-18-19/1147:08> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #219 on: <07-18-19/1451:58> »
adzling, I would say my group is extremely Pink Mohawk as well, but we also enjoy our crunch, considering we are all also Pathfinder/3.5 players, and to some extent optimizers for several of us.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for Ĩ1 million/4 once.

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #220 on: <07-18-19/2125:49> »
Yeah rift sorry if you felt stereotyped rift

There are so many different play styles and ways to define them ;-)

dalien

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 3
« Reply #221 on: <07-18-19/2127:39> »
I received the Starter box as well as a copy of the Core Rule book as a Demo agent. I read it objectively but did not say anything. I prepped some stuff and ran the Starter box with seasoned players who have been coming to my SR games for years and several editions.

 None of them liked it. I am just going to stick with other editions and maybe buy splatbooks for flavor or metaplot. I just do not care for anything that is coming in 6th ed.

Rift_0f_Bladz

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1043
  • Go big or DIE
« Reply #222 on: <07-18-19/2215:24> »
adzling no problem. We define Pink Mohawk more by how loud we are on runs: Explosives, ADPS, Heavy Armor, Etc. Not necessarily by Pixies using Combat Axes better than Trolls damage wise or bikinis soaking tank shots. Hell, our last game we all had public awareness of like 8-9 by the end of the campaign. Fun times.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for Ĩ1 million/4 once.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9616
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #223 on: <07-19-19/0221:54> »
You'll like the new system for that. Wonder if your group would see it as a challenge.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 925
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #224 on: <07-19-19/0402:07> »
Or, to flip it around, it places more emphasis on being skilled with the weapon rather then just happening to be the most roided rager in the room, since unless you know what you're doing you're likely to hit someone with the flat of the blade or misjudge the position needed for a good slice leaving only painful, but otherwise superficial bruises and lacerations.

And professional baseball players have never had steroid scandals because the power (damage) behind swinging a bat has nothing to do with strength....

Gimme a break.

As anyone who has any true understanding of physical combat will tell you, strength, speed, coordination, and skill all play a part in how much damage can be brought to bear.  With simplification being a main goal of 6e, we can't expect anything to come close to accurately incorporate all of those things, the least that can be done is if Agility and Skill are being used to attack, Strength should play a part in damage.
...so according to the  6e rules, being in my 60s, out of shape with maybe no where near the strength I used to have, let alone that of say, Mark McGuire in his prime (particularly when he was on the juice), but still knowing how to swing a bat from my younger days in the game and still having that "eye", I would be able to belt a home run as hard and as far he could.

Yeah, doesn't make sense.
Forsaken daughter is watching you