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Combat is SR6?

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Totoro

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« Reply #195 on: (22:06:41/07-23-19) »
Another reason I like the edge mechanic is it will be easy to adjust for other aspects the group might see as problematic. Is the lack of impact from strength on melee weapon damage getting you down? Spend 3 edge to add STR to your melee weapon attack dice pool. I haven't tested this one yet, it's just off the top of my head, but I picked it because average STR is 3, which averages 1 hit, you can buy a hit for 3 edge, and you would want to use this technique if you were strong, making it a poor choice for STR 2 (who could just buy a hit with 3 edge) and a good choice for a STR 6 (who would average 2 hits). Unarmed seems good enough, so I probably would limit it to melee weapons. Of course, I haven't seen the core rules yet, so the STR-with-melee-weapons problem might only be an issue in the QSR.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #196 on: (01:32:05/07-24-19) »
Interesting completely-different Edge mechanic, definitely should be included in whatever SR6-houserules-topic we will no doubt have after release.

Question: If a source allows you to claim Edge only once per encounter, would you then let them pick when they claim it? So they can pick exactly when it applies, as to not waste the points on the after-turn cap?
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Totoro

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« Reply #197 on: (17:39:45/07-24-19) »
Interesting completely-different Edge mechanic, definitely should be included in whatever SR6-houserules-topic we will no doubt have after release.

Question: If a source allows you to claim Edge only once per encounter, would you then let them pick when they claim it? So they can pick exactly when it applies, as to not waste the points on the after-turn cap?

That didn't come up, but I guess I should have had an answer for it. To match it thematically to the way we're using edge, I'd make them use it by the end of their first turn unless there was a reason why it seemed they'd be able to pull it out of their hat later.

mrchrislackey

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« Reply #198 on: (09:47:53/08-08-19) »
Are attack and defence ratings just to determine edge? Do they have another purpose?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #199 on: (09:50:34/08-08-19) »
Are attack and defence ratings just to determine edge? Do they have another purpose?

Well, edge is a pretty big deal, which means edge-related mechanics kind of a big deal too in an indirect sense.

But yes, as of the core rulebook anyway that's all you use AR and DR for.  Who knows what kind of rules expansions there'll be though in the 6we combat splatbook.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

duckman

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« Reply #200 on: (10:45:26/08-08-19) »
But if Edge is capped (I expect this to be houseruled away pretty quickly for a lot of people) and you already hit cap for whatever reason then AR and DR quickly become meaningless, right?  And this is probably my biggest problem with this edition (among many)...  Capping how quickly you can gain edge, particularly at the low, low level they have used, runs the risk of trivializing all the things that contribute to Edge like bothering to wear armor.

Xenon

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« Reply #201 on: (10:57:57/08-08-19) »
... then AR and DR quickly become meaningless, right?
Since tactical advantage is a big thing you always want to prevent your opposition from gaining any.

If you go naked (because you think you might secure you tactical advantage somewhere else) then you give free edge to your opposition when they attack you. You probably don't need to go overboard with helmets and pads and shields etc, just wearing an armored jacket will in most cases be enough to prevent the opposition from gaining an advantage.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #202 on: (11:15:08/08-08-19) »
But if Edge is capped (I expect this to be houseruled away pretty quickly for a lot of people) and you already hit cap for whatever reason then AR and DR quickly become meaningless, right?  And this is probably my biggest problem with this edition (among many)...  Capping how quickly you can gain edge, particularly at the low, low level they have used, runs the risk of trivializing all the things that contribute to Edge like bothering to wear armor.

This isn't directed at you duckman, you just happened to have written the post that threw the last straw that elicited the outburst that's about to come.

There are a lot of people who are falsely speaking in a factual nature about "armor doing nothing", often in conjunction with citing that the "nothing" involves having hit the edge gain cap. Honestly it's aggravating.  Not because I'm a 6th edition apologist, but because of the inherent lack of logic to the argument.

Look: it is not a given that you'll hit your cap.  The system isn't a case of "at the start of the round, everyone's issued 2 edge, which then in turn caps them and they can't gain any more".  You have to EARN the two edge to hit the cap.  It is NOT a given that you'll hit the edge.  Can you see why I facepalm when people say "you don't need things that give you edge because you have things that give you edge?"
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

penllawen

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« Reply #203 on: (11:20:01/08-08-19) »
you give free edge to your opposition when they attack you.
Well, only until they hit their own 2-per-Turn Edge cap.

Or even less under some circumstances. If Alice Sammy is in a fight with Bob/Charlie/Dick/Ellie/Frankie Ganger, using the mob rules, and Alice is wearing no armour, she'll concede one point of Edge per turn, equating to perhaps one dice reroll for the gangers unless they think they'll live long enough to justify saving up for a bigger Edge move.

Lormyr

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« Reply #204 on: (11:30:09/08-08-19) »
There are a lot of people who are falsely speaking in a factual nature about "armor doing nothing"

While your point is well taken, I also think you know what they mean, which is more accurately along the lines of "armor doesn't do what we believe it should".

That said, there are instances with certain builds vs. certain adversaries in which armor does do literally nothing. An example would be a character with magic resistance and toughness making a damage resist test against a spell in which the character's body alone was enough to deny edge to the magician.

And while that might seem like a fringe case (and it is), there are numerous ways to build characters that guarantee your 2 edge vs. specific attacks/situations.

While I fall into the "armor doesn't do what we believe it should" camp, I also think there should never be a situation where putting a suit of armor on literally does nothing. We have that situation though.

Finstersang

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« Reply #205 on: (11:35:17/08-08-19) »
But if Edge is capped (I expect this to be houseruled away pretty quickly for a lot of people) and you already hit cap for whatever reason then AR and DR quickly become meaningless, right?  And this is probably my biggest problem with this edition (among many)...  Capping how quickly you can gain edge, particularly at the low, low level they have used, runs the risk of trivializing all the things that contribute to Edge like bothering to wear armor.

This isn't directed at you duckman, you just happened to have written the post that threw the last straw that elicited the outburst that's about to come.

There are a lot of people who are falsely speaking in a factual nature about "armor doing nothing", often in conjunction with citing that the "nothing" involves having hit the edge gain cap. Honestly it's aggravating.  Not because I'm a 6th edition apologist, but because of the inherent lack of logic to the argument.

Look: it is not a given that you'll hit your cap.  The system isn't a case of "at the start of the round, everyone's issued 2 edge, which then in turn caps them and they can't gain any more".  You have to EARN the two edge to hit the cap.  It is NOT a given that you'll hit the edge.  Can you see why I facepalm when people say "you don't need things that give you edge because you have things that give you edge?"

Partially true, but once get in a  complex fight with many different characters and you will likely earn these 2 Edge pretty often. Its not a high bar. Every single Attack you perform or that is performed against you has the potential to generate up to 2 Edge, plus other Edge-generating sources (Control Rig etc.) on top.

If you are wired up with Inititative Enhancements, you can easily earn these 2 Edge with your 1-2 Attacks at the start of the round by making the best out of circumstances or having a Gun with a good AR. After that, the possible effect of DR-AR and beneficial circumstance is already greatly reduced, because the best thing it can do is help denying Edge for the Attackers. And if your Attackers have hit the cap as well (which is possible in a complex fight), fire out of cover IV (brilliant idea  ::))or cant get Edge for another reason, then its really worth nothing.

Should I ever pick up SR6 (Im very hesitant now, but maybe the german CRB is not a total dumbsterfire...), ill definetely houserule the 2-Edge Cap. Dont know yet if Id prefer the AnCap or the Social Democrat approach (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29528.msg520481#msg520481 for reference) to fix it, but Im definetely too old to be a commie 8)
« Last Edit: (12:03:00/08-08-19) by Finstersang »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #206 on: (11:48:57/08-08-19) »
Nobody's dumb enough to not wear any armor. If you were armorless I'd give your enemies a second Edge point. Not sure why people constantly fall back to no-armor arguments.
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Lormyr

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« Reply #207 on: (11:53:32/08-08-19) »
Nobody's dumb enough to not wear any armor. If you were armorless I'd give your enemies a second Edge point. Not sure why people constantly fall back to no-armor arguments.

I mean, you could make up rules just to be a jerk, sure. It's not hard to make a legitimate build that does not need worn armor though.

Almost all weapons fall in the AR range of 8-12. There are very few things other than monofilament whips and unarmed/bow trolls that go higher. So if you are a beefy ork with a 9 body, that negates the substantial majority of weapons from being able to get edge when attacking you (barring other miscellaneous adds to either side, which are few).

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #208 on: (11:57:29/08-08-19) »
If you're gaining 2 edge on your attack, armor already HAS done something: the NPC not wearing enough of it has given you an edge point.

And in such a case, yes your armor can't give you more in the same round, but it can still deny edge to your attacker.  Armor is edge denial. Yes, not helping soak is a big change, but helping prevent edge actions from being used on you is still a big benefit.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #209 on: (12:04:44/08-08-19) »
helping prevent edge actions from being used on you is still a big benefit.

As relates to armor, circumstantially I would say. The big concern for me is getting dog piled by opponents all gaining edge. That would get ugly quick, especially if the grunts are kicking that edge up for the heavy hitters.

But DR is a lot easier to stack than AR, especially considering most of the great firing modes subtract AR.

A human with exceptional attribute and max body has a 7. Add in one of sustained increase body, or improved physical attribute and they have DR 11 without a lick of worn protection. That negates the vast majority of edge gain from attacks by itself, to say nothing of an ork or troll doing the same.