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Combat is SR6?

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« Reply #105 on: (11:50:20/07-12-19) »
And as for “real world combat“, what are your house rules to represent bleed out, or for shock. A lot of deaths from gunshots are the result of blood loss, which is why some people will die into a single 32, and others will take a full clip of 45 (or a railroad spike through the brain, weird but true story) and be OK.

TBH if I was looking for real feeling gunfights/urban hell I'd go with 2020 because that's still the game where getting shot always makes you flinch.

Shadowrun I more want camp nonsense, either of the overly serious black trenchcoat or The Fucking Most of a mohawk. So it's always bizzare to see people bringing up realism in relation to a game where the tech base, physics and near everything is off kilter from the real world as a setting.

adzling

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« Reply #106 on: (11:50:39/07-12-19) »
Not liking what your seeing and raising concerns is one thing. Saying it’s inane and broken and they all should have known better but they must have been too busy echoing each other is another thing entirely.

it's a reasonable response to a mechanic that clearly cannot even remotely reflect common real world scenarios and should have been easily uncovered during playtesting.

« Reply #107 on: (11:51:44/07-12-19) »
Not liking what your seeing and raising concerns is one thing. Saying it’s inane and broken and they all should have known better but they must have been too busy echoing each other is another thing entirely.

it's a reasonable response to a mechanic that clearly cannot even remotely reflect common real world scenarios and should have been easily uncovered during playtesting.

Real world scenarios like a troll in an armoured leather jacket shooting fifty cal rounds from the hip with his smart linked sniper at a dragon?

Hobbes

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« Reply #108 on: (12:00:40/07-12-19) »
...(a 7 dice difference in dice pools)...

Apologies again, but that is the math error.  You can't simply compare the single bell curve of the difference in dice pools.  You need to compare the overlapping areas of 4 different pairs of Bell Curves, 8 total, and then compare the % change between the two scenarios. 

The bell curve of the difference in dice pools is absolutely not, in any way shape or form, an accurate representation of the probable outcomes of an opposed test.  To illustrate, using your Difference only model you have the same outcome of 0 v 1 as 15 dice v 16 dice.  0 v 1, the 0 will never win.  15 v 16 is slightly less than 50%.

I realize being told on the interwebs that you're wrong isn't ideal.  I do sincerely appreciate your time and energy being spent to respond, and the time you spent in creating the game.  Thank you, again for your time.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #109 on: (12:01:28/07-12-19) »
Any game system where you can dodge bullets is automatically de-prioritizing realism.

In 5e, where you can dodge bullets AND get bogged down in "realistic" modifiers is schizophrenic. 6e aims to remove that conflict 5e has with itself.
« Last Edit: (12:04:04/07-12-19) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #110 on: (12:03:44/07-12-19) »
I still need to write a decent tool for analysing drain and services since it combines two rolls..

Anyway at anydice.com  12d{0,0,1}-10d {0,0,1} is a useful trick.
CorpSec when an alarm is triggered;: "This is so sad, Alexa play Shoot The Runner"

Finstersang

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« Reply #111 on: (12:04:51/07-12-19) »
I´m actually on the fence if my preferred Houserule/Errata/Official Fix for the "Only 2 Edge per round" BS would be turning it into "2 Edge per turn" (as it was apparently conceived and playtested) or by adding the "Edge that´s spent on the Action that made you earn it doesn´t count for the Limit"-clause I suggested.

The latter is a bit more realistic (because of the incentive to use Edge right away instead of banking it) and would make sure that no earned point of Edge would really go to waste.

2 Edge per turn is a bit easier to manage and explain, and would allow for a "bait & punish"-playstyle for tanky characters - which TBH wouldn´t be entirely realistic, but pretty fun.       

Or just throw that Limit away alltogether...  ::)   

« Reply #112 on: (12:06:56/07-12-19) »
Any game system where you can dodge bullets is automatically de-prioritizing realism.

In 5e, where you can dodge bullets AND get bogged down in "realistic" modifiers is schizophrenic. 6e aims to remove that conflict 5e has with itself.

Dodge bullets could just be like, a base line that modelled characters with combat experience vs not. Just vaguely modelling the idea that people with high X are moving properly and responding correctly in the way that minimizes horrible violence to their body when guns are involved.

And then only magic makes you actually good at dodging bullets.

But yeah, 5e's got this huge issue where it wants to realistically model everything in a very camp, silly setting and then it just sort of tears at every seam that creates by having really disparate and poorly laid out rules. It's frustrating.

duckman

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« Reply #113 on: (12:14:48/07-12-19) »
that's just it though, are they both effected the same offensively yes, can hey both see just fine and etc yes ... but you are all glossing over some of the obvious stuff ... does the attacker have any way of mitigating the high winds? Is the defender effected by the winds? In this case I would assume both answers are no ... means the environmental advantage goes to the defender and he gets an edge point (same would apply when roles are reversed so you effectively just trade edge back and forth unless you change it up). It's all about who has the "tactical" advantage based on the action being taken. The fact that both attackers do not have their dice pool reduced does not statistically matter in the exchange, but how you make use of the situation to your advantage does.

also, while I do agree that the new edge system takes a lot of the punch out of the impact the previous modifiers provided but the the tactical choices are still there. So, yes while it is not nearly as in depth as a tactical simulation as it used to be it is still very viable to make effective use of tactics ... just in a different way and with different results.

So there are two fundamental problems here...  The first is the interaction of probability...  Larger pools have larger deviation (i.e. they are wider) allowing for a player to get very hot or very cold...  15 dice expect 6 hits but they can get 15.  6 dice expect 2 hits.  Is that 33% as effective?  Now add in the effects of edge or buying successes.  You can do so much more with 15 dice than you can with 9 when you start adding +1 to a die or exploding 6s.  How much edge do I need to avoid getting hit if you have 6 dice?  What about if you have 15?

Then add in what those probabilities mean...  If I want to soak damage I have a pretty static dice pool.  Now I care a whole lot about reducing the number of successes you could have had by reducing your dice pool.  The amount of potential incoming damage matters a lot to all parties involved and it impacts how a party needs to be built to be effective.  Want to try running without healing?

And then let's talk about the tactical impacts of those probabilities...  If I am a mage running with a bunch of melee-focused street samurai is it possible for me give them cover while they close with a bunch of CorpSec with guns?  I create smoke or darkness...  If my side tries to shoot everyone has the same problem so nobody gets edge but if my side tries to close they have edge (but still get shot by big dice pools, see above)?  Why can't I make a tactical choice to shut down ranged combat?  Maybe I know that CorpSec doesn't carry 250 lbs of ammo the way my insane friend does...  I'm happy to drag combat out and see who runs out of ammo first...  No longer an option.  Ohhh, look...  That guys over there has white phosphorus rounds (or lightning or electricity or ice or...) and now I care a whole lot about not getting hit...

Tactically speaking, anything that I want to accomplish other than shooting someone is now a GM fiat or a house rule.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #114 on: (12:28:36/07-12-19) »
Any game system where you can dodge bullets is automatically de-prioritizing realism.

In 5e, where you can dodge bullets AND get bogged down in "realistic" modifiers is schizophrenic. 6e aims to remove that conflict 5e has with itself.

I never once viewed it as dodging bullets but as making yourself a harder target.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #115 on: (12:38:07/07-12-19) »
Any game system where you can dodge bullets is automatically de-prioritizing realism.

In 5e, where you can dodge bullets AND get bogged down in "realistic" modifiers is schizophrenic. 6e aims to remove that conflict 5e has with itself.

I never once viewed it as dodging bullets but as making yourself a harder target.

That's fine to do, but you need to recognize that that's doing mental gymnastics to accommodate the inherent disconnect with realism where the game allows you to literally dodge bullets.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #116 on: (12:43:45/07-12-19) »
Nobody dodges bullets. In 5e, you dodge the barrel of the gun before the other guy pulls the trigger, just like in real life.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #117 on: (12:47:52/07-12-19) »
Nobody dodges bullets. In 5e, you dodge the barrel of the gun before the other guy pulls the trigger, just like in real life.

If that were the case, you'd have a penalty to shoot people at close range with something big like a rifle compared to something fast and easy like a SMG or better yet, a pistol.  Yet there isn't one in 5e.

Ironically, for all the bellyaching about how 6e is divorcing itself from reality, this IS reflected in 6e via the Attack Rating values.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #118 on: (12:56:38/07-12-19) »
Any game system where you can dodge bullets is automatically de-prioritizing realism.

In 5e, where you can dodge bullets AND get bogged down in "realistic" modifiers is schizophrenic. 6e aims to remove that conflict 5e has with itself.

I never once viewed it as dodging bullets but as making yourself a harder target.

That's fine to do, but you need to recognize that that's doing mental gymnastics to accommodate the inherent disconnect with realism where the game allows you to literally dodge bullets.

No I don’t, because you aren’t literally dodging bullets. You are rolling a defense test creating a threshold your opponent must exceed to hit you.

« Reply #119 on: (13:02:46/07-12-19) »
Any game system where you can dodge bullets is automatically de-prioritizing realism.

In 5e, where you can dodge bullets AND get bogged down in "realistic" modifiers is schizophrenic. 6e aims to remove that conflict 5e has with itself.

I never once viewed it as dodging bullets but as making yourself a harder target.

That's fine to do, but you need to recognize that that's doing mental gymnastics to accommodate the inherent disconnect with realism where the game allows you to literally dodge bullets.

No I don’t, because you aren’t literally dodging bullets. You are rolling a defense test creating a threshold your opponent must exceed to hit you.

This becomes very tenuous with adept skills that make you better at doging bullets and have forever being themed as 'what if the matrix but an elf'.