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Combat is SR6?

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Hephaestus

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« on: (23:27:03/07-10-19) »
Any word? I'm not seeing it up yet.

FastJack

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Serbitar

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« Reply #2 on: (08:57:54/07-11-19) »
Why is it harder to sum up modifiers for Attack and Defense dice rolls (SR1-5) than summing up Attack and Defense rating (S6)?
I dont really get what replacing modifiers with rating makes faster. You still have to calculate two numbers that can be affected by a large value of possible effects.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #3 on: (09:08:32/07-11-19) »
Attack and Defense Ratings are presented as being (mostly) static.  You calculate them once, probably prior to the session, and they don't really change the whole game.  Or, if they do, they are changed in downtime when you upgrade Attributes or change gear.

As an example, your Attack Rating is based on your weapon (at least for ranged combat) and won't change as long as you don't change weapons.  Once you add Armor to Body, your Defense Rating won't change as long as your Body doesn't change.  Etc..

Serbitar

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« Reply #4 on: (09:31:03/07-11-19) »
So the following does not affect attack rating?

- wind
- distance to target
- lighting
- rain/smoke
- that you are running or not
- cover

Traditional dice pools for a task (attack values, soak pools and so on) are also largely static and can be calculated up front (and you have to do this for the attack and defense rating system also, so you have to calculate pool and rating. which is more not less). The point in situational modifiers is, that they are situational. Either Attack and Defense rating neglect situational modifiers, then you could just use the old system and ignore those modifers, or they have the same problem (meaning that you now have to calculate modifiers for Attack Rating instead for dice pool). In both cases you added calculating Attack and Defense Rating on top of what you did before.
There is absolutely no benefit. You could just use traditional pools and ignore situational modifiers (if the Attack Rating/Defsense Rating does so, I dont know. If it doesnt, well then you also gained nothing).

Old:

calculate pool (static)
calculate situational modifiers to pool (optional, if you want to streamline)

New:

calculate pool (static)
calculate rating (static)
calculate situational modifiers to rating(optional, if you want to streamline)

New is more complicated and has less game effect (see discussiona bout armor and such).


« Last Edit: (09:42:23/07-11-19) by Serbitar »

FastJack

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« Reply #5 on: (09:49:03/07-11-19) »
You know, I'm a mathematician. Got a bachelor's in straight mathematics. I love MS Excel and number crunching all day.

That being said, I appreciate these changes. It seems like everyone is skimming the article instead of reading the article.

Why is it harder to sum up modifiers for Attack and Defense dice rolls (SR1-5) than summing up Attack and Defense rating (S6)?
I dont really get what replacing modifiers with rating makes faster. You still have to calculate two numbers that can be affected by a large value of possible effects.

Adding up Attack and Defense dice roll modifiers is the player and DM spending 5-15 minutes on their turn adding together all the modifiers that tells them what their chances are for firing a bullet in three seconds. Attack and Defense rating are already figured out at the beginning of the game and doesn't require the combat round to stop to figure out the roll.

So the following does not affect attack rating?

- wind
- distance to target
- lighting
- rain/smoke
- that you are running or not
- cover

Traditional dice pools for a task (attack values, soak pools and so on) are also largely static and can be calculated up front (and you have to do this for the attack and defense rating system also, so you have to calculate pool and rating. which is more not less). The point in situational modifiers is, that they are situational. Either Attack and Defense rating neglect situational modifiers, then you could just use the old system and ignore those modifers, or they have the same problem (meaning that you now have to calculate modifiers for Attack Rating instead for dice pool). In both cases you added calculating Attack and Defense Rating on top of what you did before.
There is absolutely no benefit. You could just use traditional pools and ignore situational modifiers (if the Attack Rating/Defsense Rating does so, I dont know. If it doesnt, well then you also gained nothing).

Old:

calculate pool (static)
calculate situational modifiers to pool (optional, if you want to streamline)

New:

calculate pool (static)
calculate rating (static)
calculate situational modifiers to rating(optional, if you want to streamline)

New is more complicated and has less game effect (see discussiona bout armor and such).
Wind, distance, lighting, rain/smoke, running, cover - affects both attacker and defender. -X to attacker, +X to defender, so you spent twenty minutes to figure out that your five hits rolled counts as five hits against the defender.

The dice pools are not static for an entire session. Currently, they are static for an encounter (unless you move inside/outside, a spell is cast limiting sight/cover/etc., you're in a vehicle... ), so you have to figure everything out in the beginning, adding a half hour for all the players to "get ready". The new rules have it figured out when you sit down at the table. If you're running 3-4 encounters, that's two hours you get back for play.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #6 on: (10:10:05/07-11-19) »
I’m sure it will be marginally quicker due to the modifiers but depth it lost for that small increase. The new initiative system will speed things up but despite their claims I suspect at the loss of the speed freaks shining in combat.

They in fact mentioned one of my theories on why people won’t bother with high levels of wired reflexes. Leaving minors unused.

Here is the math you get 1 major and 1 minor. 1 more minor per initiative dice. Let’s say you go for wired 2. You now have 4 minors and 1 major. Now you could potentially do 2 majors but odds are you are going to need at least 1 minor. So really you have 1 major and you will get 4 minors. Most likely you won’t use all 4 so why did you dump 3 essence  and crap tons of cash into it.  And if there isn’t a burning need for 3 as opposed to 2 what exactly did you gain from it. Go go street sams.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: (10:15:28/07-11-19) »
- distance to target: There are 5 ranges, each weapon has an Attack Rating (or not) for each range
- cover: Bonus to Defense Rating
These two directly go into AR-DR, and the difference is only used to determine Edge-or-no-Edge. No changes to dicepools, just you/no/enemy.

- wind
- lighting
- rain/smoke
- that you are running or not
GM decides to give parties with an edge an Edge point. Again no need for detailed numbers, just see if either/both/neither side gets an Edge for having an edge.

Edit: I should note that you don't calculate your Attack Rating in combat. Nor does your Defense Rating change, except for the Cover-part. So these numbers are actually on your character sheet in advance, all you do is check which of the numbers you have to use.
« Last Edit: (10:48:46/07-11-19) by Michael Chandra »
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #8 on: (11:03:06/07-11-19) »
THIS is why 6e's combat streamlining was needed:

Quote
In the end, we came up with a system that kept my group’s hacker and mage happily sitting at the table and waiting for their next turn instead of whipping out phones or checking out or going to pick up pizza, while also making the street sam feel like she still ruled combat in the shadows.

Combat in 5e ate so much time to resolve.  And if you didn't score the same kind of initiative as an initiative munchkin, literally hours of the game were off limits to you over the course of a session.  Physically leaving the table, even leaving the entire FLGS to go get stuffers, absolutely went on during 5e combats. That's awful and the game had to change.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

adzling

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« Reply #9 on: (11:03:32/07-11-19) »
Adding up Attack and Defense dice roll modifiers is the player and DM spending 5-15 minutes on their turn adding together all the modifiers that tells them what their chances are for firing a bullet in three seconds.

5-15 minutes??!
What?
Are you nuts?
At most you're looking at vision, movement and / or distance penalties.
Movement penalties are fixed, so you either get it or you don't.
AR's change with range so that was not "simplified away" but actually made more complex because now EACH weapon has it's own AR varying differently at range rather than a fixed range modifier.
At most it would take you about 60 seconds to look up your vision penalties.

Geeze if that's the basis of the change from modifiers to AR and DRs then no wonder 6e is so....nuts.

It's clear that 6e has swapped any semblance of reality for gamey mechanics that aren't even that much simpler than before (see new edge mechanic and constant GM edge-begging).
« Last Edit: (11:07:01/07-11-19) by adzling »

Finstersang

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« Reply #10 on: (11:05:03/07-11-19) »
My 2 cents on the most important changes:

Attack and Defense Ratings, Edge
  • The genereal idea behind Attack and Defense Ratings is really good, no question. I especially really like the new range categories, because they actually bring more depth to shootouts despite being part of an overall simplification campaign. The only problem is that all of this is all into the new Edge System...
  • ... Which is also generally a good idea, IMO. Instead of counting all the different modifiers to the attack, defense and soak tests (many of which will just cancel each other out) the GM just roughly estimates who´s got the upper hand and tosses an Edge. Cool idea, and it surely speeds things up.
  • So where´s the problem then? Some claim that Edge isn´t worth enough, because 1 Edge is worth just one die more or less on a roll. I beg to differ. The fact that you can safe up Edge for the moments when you really need it make much more valuable than that. Even the 1 edge - 1 die reroll is actually a very valuable option, because it can be used to reroll the dice (i.e. Hits) of your opposition as well. Stealing that one hit that separates a hit from a a miss makes a huge difference.
  • So yes. Edge is actually a cool and fun system. Until some genius decides to put a GODDAMN LIMIT ON IT FOR THE WHOLE GODDAMN COMBAT ROUND. Because now, once you hit that ceiling (and that ceiling is pretty damn low, considering all the different ways in which you can earn Edge), nothing of the above matters anymore. Superiour Gear? Tactical Choices? Armor? Cover? Distance? All down the drain until the next combat round. That´s the problem with Edge. One sentence that flips it all upside down.

Initiative and Action Economy

« Last Edit: (11:08:26/07-11-19) by Finstersang »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: (11:23:40/07-11-19) »
    ...
    • So yes. Edge is actually a cool and fun system. Until some genius decides to put a GODDAMN LIMIT ON IT FOR THE WHOLE GODDAMN COMBAT ROUND. Because now, once you hit that ceiling (and that ceiling is pretty damn low, considering all the different ways in which you can earn Edge), nothing of the above matters anymore. Superiour Gear? Tactical Choices? Armor? Cover? Distance? All down the drain until the next combat round. That´s the problem with Edge. One sentence that flips it all upside down.
    ...

    This kind of gets me head-scratching, too. Apparently, it was playtested as being a cap on 2 edge per action, but its final form becomes 2 edge per round.  Not sure what the catalyst there was.
    However, since everyone only gets one pass (and another reason that hasn't been publicly teased/spoiled yet) you'll generally only face 1 attack per round anyway... so in effect your armor being useless because you've already hit your Edge cap for the round shouldn't be happening all that often.
    RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

    Serbitar

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    « Reply #12 on: (11:33:56/07-11-19) »
    You know, I'm a mathematician. Got a bachelor's in straight mathematics. I love MS Excel and number crunching all day.

    Nice. I got a PHD in physics and code for a living. So what?

    Quote
    That being said, I appreciate these changes. It seems like everyone is skimming the article instead of reading the article.

    No, I am talking about explicit points, which bother me, I am not looking at others.

    Quote
    Wind, distance, lighting, rain/smoke, running, cover - affects both attacker and defender. -X to attacker, +X to defender, so you spent twenty minutes to figure out that your five hits rolled counts as five hits against the defender.
    Math batchelor? -X for attacker and +X for defender does not cancel out, they result in a cumulative 2X difference. But the modifiers you mention (Wind, distance, lighting, rain/smoke, running, cover)  is never calculated both for attacker and defender. So I think your point is problematic alltogether.

    Quote
    The dice pools are not static for an entire session. Currently, they are static for an encounter (unless you move inside/outside, a spell is cast limiting sight/cover/etc., you're in a vehicle... ), so you have to figure everything out in the beginning, adding a half hour for all the players to "get ready". The new rules have it figured out when you sit down at the table. If you're running 3-4 encounters, that's two hours you get back for play.

    The same is exactly true for dice pool modifiers. Please give a reason why calculating modifiers for dice pool is slower than calculating modifiers for attack/defense rating? Did you read my post?
    « Last Edit: (11:35:57/07-11-19) by Serbitar »

    Serbitar

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    « Reply #13 on: (11:38:54/07-11-19) »
    - distance to target: There are 5 ranges, each weapon has an Attack Rating (or not) for each range
    - cover: Bonus to Defense Rating
    These two directly go into AR-DR, and the difference is only used to determine Edge-or-no-Edge. No changes to dicepools, just you/no/enemy.

    - wind
    - lighting
    - rain/smoke
    - that you are running or not
    GM decides to give parties with an edge an Edge point. Again no need for detailed numbers, just see if either/both/neither side gets an Edge for having an edge.

    Edit: I should note that you don't calculate your Attack Rating in combat. Nor does your Defense Rating change, except for the Cover-part. So these numbers are actually on your character sheet in advance, all you do is check which of the numbers you have to use.

    You DO calculate it, if it changes with distance. Calculating and looking it up from a table that gives various conditions (like distance) are the same thing.
    So you basically simplify modifers, Could have done that with dice pools also. Edge is just used to give it a better spin (which is OK if you like the mechanic).

    Serbitar

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    « Reply #14 on: (11:50:02/07-11-19) »
    To give some points on the other improvements:

    Dice rolling every turn for initiative was always a bad idea, and is the biggest improvement flow wise (other systems had that for a while, so no biggie here).

    More actions for combat monsters is good, but not new. SR4 style action phases would have been better IMHO though.

    Saying that it is not a problem to waste minor actions because your next turn is just arround the corner is mixing worlds. You cant excuse poor balancing (you paid for the actions wtih money and essence) with good game flow (yeah, i will act again in just 2 real life minutes instead of 5, because of sped up combat). You need both, and both are very different dimensions.
    « Last Edit: (11:54:36/07-11-19) by Serbitar »