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Combat is SR6?

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Banshee

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« Reply #75 on: (08:27:07/07-12-19) »
I don't think you are helping your cause there Banshee.

If the combat is going down and everyone is having their base chance to hit each other, then someone puts up a smoke screen between them...  And no one has a harder time hitting their targets?

That is the point that is sticking in some peoples craw.

With the new modular spell crafting, a mage can blanket an entire city block in darkness.  As long as no combatants have Low Light Vision, nothing changes at all.
A different mage fills the battlefield with buffeting winds, and no shots are more difficult.

Physics.
What is it good for.
Absolutely nothing.
Say it again.

But THAT is not the point I was trying to argue or make in anyway

However, while it it is not realistic (I do agree on that point) what overall impact does it have on the game? If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome? If the probability curve is merely shifted but the chances of success stay the same on both side of the equation (just reduced due to environmental modifiers) then all it does is prolong the encounter because it takes longer before Side A or Side B finally scores the critical hit that shifts the advantage and therefore "wins" the fight. But if Side A chooses to use the environment in a way that does change the advantage to their benefit then they earn Edge which can then be spent to modify their chances of success and therefore increase the chance that they come out on top (or escape if that is the intent). Which brings the point back around to "it's all in how you use the situation".
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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FastJack

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« Reply #76 on: (08:29:05/07-12-19) »
Fox that is literally what Iíve been asking for. A threshold system for opposed tests. But their blog/post whatever itís called,  today explaining combat said as long as both sides are penalized itís just a wash and there is no edge, dice pool changes, threshold modifiers etc.  and Iíve seen nothing to indicate a threshold modifying system for combat at all yet. Against the environment sure, combat not yet.

Quote from: Quick Start Rules, Beginner Box Set, p. 5
Opposed Tests

In an Opposed test, another character, object, device, or entity is actively (or passively) resisting your efforts, so you must exceed their effort to succeed. In an Opposed test, two parties (usually the player as PC vs. the gamemaster as NPC or object) roll dice pools and compare the number of hits. The one with the most hits wins. The difference between the higher number of hits and the lower number of hits are the net hits in these tests, and they are often applied to the action in some wayófor example, in combat, net hits from the attacker are added to the Damage Value of their attack.

(Emphasis mine) I'm not sure if this is exactly what you meant by thresholds modifying system for combat, but net hits do add to damage. On the same page, the Threshold Guidelines for Simple test are also given, from 1-7 and using shooting at a person as an example.

So Iím saying letís say I have 6 dice on my defense test because unlike the box set examples Iím not captain America with perfect stats   I get 2 hits on my defense test. Effectively the threshold to hit me is 2. A threshold difficulty system would say the threshold to hit you is increased by x in these circumstances. Like poor visibility maybe Iíd need 3 hits to hit you instead of the two. Your diecpool would never change but youíd potentially miss or lose net hits because itís a harder shot.

The real play things and comments from people on this board to the blog thing have stated that doesnít happen that itís pretty much just edge outside a couple specific dice pool modifiers like wounds. That thresholds are used only for non opposed tests. Itís my opinion that edge on its own. doesnít do a good job of reflecting the inherent difficulty of certain attacks. Like long range, poor visibility etc. it can reflect more minor shifts in difficulty but not large ones.
And in the new system (if I'm reading/hearing things correctly), instead of needing three hits, you get a point of edge. And you can then spend that edge immediately to force the attacker to re-roll one of his hits or you can re-roll one of your misses. If you have enough advantage to gain two edge, you spend two to have them re-roll two of their hits, re-roll two of your misses, or add +1 to a four your rolled, changing it to a hit.

FastJack

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« Reply #77 on: (08:32:21/07-12-19) »
I don't think you are helping your cause there Banshee.

If the combat is going down and everyone is having their base chance to hit each other, then someone puts up a smoke screen between them...  And no one has a harder time hitting their targets?

That is the point that is sticking in some peoples craw.

With the new modular spell crafting, a mage can blanket an entire city block in darkness.  As long as no combatants have Low Light Vision, nothing changes at all.
A different mage fills the battlefield with buffeting winds, and no shots are more difficult.

Physics.
What is it good for.
Absolutely nothing.
Say it again.
OR

You don't blanket the city in darkness, you cast a globe of darkness over the sniperóbang! gain an edge.
Instead of filling the area with buffeting winds, ask the air spirit to just bug the other teamóbang! gain an edge.

Just because you can launch nukes, doesn't mean it's the best option.

Edit: Also, were you blanketing a city in darkness or filling a battlefield with winds in 5E? How'd that work out? Everyone get the same modifiers?
« Last Edit: (08:34:15/07-12-19) by FastJack »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #78 on: (08:49:34/07-12-19) »
I don't think you are helping your cause there Banshee.

If the combat is going down and everyone is having their base chance to hit each other, then someone puts up a smoke screen between them...  And no one has a harder time hitting their targets?

That is the point that is sticking in some peoples craw.

With the new modular spell crafting, a mage can blanket an entire city block in darkness.  As long as no combatants have Low Light Vision, nothing changes at all.
A different mage fills the battlefield with buffeting winds, and no shots are more difficult.

Physics.
What is it good for.
Absolutely nothing.
Say it again.

But THAT is not the point I was trying to argue or make in anyway

However, while it it is not realistic (I do agree on that point) what overall impact does it have on the game? If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome? If the probability curve is merely shifted but the chances of success stay the same on both side of the equation (just reduced due to environmental modifiers) then all it does is prolong the encounter because it takes longer before Side A or Side B finally scores the critical hit that shifts the advantage and therefore "wins" the fight. But if Side A chooses to use the environment in a way that does change the advantage to their benefit then they earn Edge which can then be spent to modify their chances of success and therefore increase the chance that they come out on top (or escape if that is the intent). Which brings the point back around to "it's all in how you use the situation".

If I have 15 dice and lose 6 to shoot people with 6 dice to defend and they have 8 dice and lose 6 to shoot people with 6 dice to defend trust me the situation has changed. Iím still likely to hit them they are likely to miss.

Banshee

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« Reply #79 on: (08:55:33/07-12-19) »
I don't think you are helping your cause there Banshee.

If the combat is going down and everyone is having their base chance to hit each other, then someone puts up a smoke screen between them...  And no one has a harder time hitting their targets?

That is the point that is sticking in some peoples craw.

With the new modular spell crafting, a mage can blanket an entire city block in darkness.  As long as no combatants have Low Light Vision, nothing changes at all.
A different mage fills the battlefield with buffeting winds, and no shots are more difficult.

Physics.
What is it good for.
Absolutely nothing.
Say it again.

But THAT is not the point I was trying to argue or make in anyway

However, while it it is not realistic (I do agree on that point) what overall impact does it have on the game? If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome? If the probability curve is merely shifted but the chances of success stay the same on both side of the equation (just reduced due to environmental modifiers) then all it does is prolong the encounter because it takes longer before Side A or Side B finally scores the critical hit that shifts the advantage and therefore "wins" the fight. But if Side A chooses to use the environment in a way that does change the advantage to their benefit then they earn Edge which can then be spent to modify their chances of success and therefore increase the chance that they come out on top (or escape if that is the intent). Which brings the point back around to "it's all in how you use the situation".

If I have 15 dice and lose 6 to shoot people with 6 dice to defend and they have 8 dice and lose 6 to shoot people with 6 dice to defend trust me the situation has changed. Iím still likely to hit them they are likely to miss.

yes, but that is exactly what I am talking about all you did was shift the pools from 15 and 8 to 9 and 2 ... still has the same probability curve (a 7 dice difference in dice pools) it's just shifted to the left
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #80 on: (09:11:21/07-12-19) »
If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome?

The same penalties does not equal the same effect.  Well, unless all the die pools are the same size.

If your character reduces the oppositions chance to hit from (an arbitrary) 25% to 10%, if you'll forgive me the clumsy math, you roughly double your characters chances of survival.
If at the same time you reduce your characters chance of scoring a hit from roughly 100% down to 85%, some would call that a good trade.
Your character misses roughly 1 in 5 shots for a doubled chance of survival.

Then again, your character used to put on armor to prevent damage....

Banshee

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« Reply #81 on: (09:25:11/07-12-19) »
If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome?

The same penalties does not equal the same effect.  Well, unless all the die pools are the same size.

If your character reduces the oppositions chance to hit from (an arbitrary) 25% to 10%, if you'll forgive me the clumsy math, you roughly double your characters chances of survival.
If at the same time you reduce your characters chance of scoring a hit from roughly 100% down to 85%, some would call that a good trade.
Your character misses roughly 1 in 5 shots for a doubled chance of survival.

Then again, your character used to put on armor to prevent damage....

yes, but everyone is missing what I am saying ... if all parties have their chances of success reduced by the same amount the overall effect is just shifting the whole range to the left. The difference in chances of success are the same so if you had a compared chance of success (for the encounter not individual action) of 75% (difference of 100 and 25) in scenario A, you also have then you still have a 75% (difference of 85 and 10) chance of success in scenario B. The only difference in A you can win in 2 or 3 actions while in B it takes you 5 or 6 actions

NOTE: yes this is using quick clumsy math but if you take them time to actually plot a probability curve you would see the same effect, and yes we went through several iterations of that study when developing the new system :)
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
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« Reply #82 on: (09:31:00/07-12-19) »
Personally I'd just up the base threshold of everyone's checks, which is how Infinity does opposed tests with difficulty, but I don't know if SR6 explicitly supports that.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #83 on: (09:39:43/07-12-19) »
Personally I'd just up the base threshold of everyone's checks, which is how Infinity does opposed tests with difficulty, but I don't know if SR6 explicitly supports that.

Thatís what Iíd do, I donít think SR6 supports that from what Iíve seen.  But itís how Iíll likely house rule it.

Banshee

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« Reply #84 on: (09:42:53/07-12-19) »
Personally I'd just up the base threshold of everyone's checks, which is how Infinity does opposed tests with difficulty, but I don't know if SR6 explicitly supports that.

not any different than 5E in that regard ... in an opposed roll your "threshold" is set by your opponents roll, unopposed rolls have a threshold
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #85 on: (09:44:06/07-12-19) »
If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome?

The same penalties does not equal the same effect.  Well, unless all the die pools are the same size.

If your character reduces the oppositions chance to hit from (an arbitrary) 25% to 10%, if you'll forgive me the clumsy math, you roughly double your characters chances of survival.
If at the same time you reduce your characters chance of scoring a hit from roughly 100% down to 85%, some would call that a good trade.
Your character misses roughly 1 in 5 shots for a doubled chance of survival.

Then again, your character used to put on armor to prevent damage....

yes, but everyone is missing what I am saying ... if all parties have their chances of success reduced by the same amount the overall effect is just shifting the whole range to the left. The difference in chances of success are the same so if you had a compared chance of success (for the encounter not individual action) of 75% (difference of 100 and 25) in scenario A, you also have then you still have a 75% (difference of 85 and 10) chance of success in scenario B. The only difference in A you can win in 2 or 3 actions while in B it takes you 5 or 6 actions

NOTE: yes this is using quick clumsy math but if you take them time to actually plot a probability curve you would see the same effect, and yes we went through several iterations of that study when developing the new system :)

Once again, chances of success do not equal the same effect.

Combat capable characters are generally built around 1 successful shot, one kill.  It varies of course.
PCs typically (in the games I play in) take 3, maybe 4 successful hits before being taken out.  Again, there is variation.

In scenario A, your character likely takes a hit.
In scenario B, your character likely doesn't take a hit.

Of course, that explains why 6e reportedly has increased the amount of healing available....

Banshee

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« Reply #86 on: (09:53:26/07-12-19) »
If everyone is taking the same penalties on combat roles, what does that do to effect the outcome?

The same penalties does not equal the same effect.  Well, unless all the die pools are the same size.

If your character reduces the oppositions chance to hit from (an arbitrary) 25% to 10%, if you'll forgive me the clumsy math, you roughly double your characters chances of survival.
If at the same time you reduce your characters chance of scoring a hit from roughly 100% down to 85%, some would call that a good trade.
Your character misses roughly 1 in 5 shots for a doubled chance of survival.

Then again, your character used to put on armor to prevent damage....

yes, but everyone is missing what I am saying ... if all parties have their chances of success reduced by the same amount the overall effect is just shifting the whole range to the left. The difference in chances of success are the same so if you had a compared chance of success (for the encounter not individual action) of 75% (difference of 100 and 25) in scenario A, you also have then you still have a 75% (difference of 85 and 10) chance of success in scenario B. The only difference in A you can win in 2 or 3 actions while in B it takes you 5 or 6 actions

NOTE: yes this is using quick clumsy math but if you take them time to actually plot a probability curve you would see the same effect, and yes we went through several iterations of that study when developing the new system :)

Once again, chances of success do not equal the same effect.

Combat capable characters are generally built around 1 successful shot, one kill.  It varies of course.
PCs typically (in the games I play in) take 3, maybe 4 successful hits before being taken out.  Again, there is variation.

In scenario A, your character likely takes a hit.
In scenario B, your character likely doesn't take a hit.

Of course, that explains why 6e reportedly has increased the amount of healing available....

That;s just it ... your chances of taking a hit don't change. If your dice pool is 7 dice higher than your opponents (which they are in both scenarios using your example) then you are still approximately 40% more likely to score more success than your opponent in either case. The only thing that changes is the the average and maximum amount of successes that both sides are able to get, but it is the same ratio.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #87 on: (10:01:49/07-12-19) »
If your dice pool is 7 dice higher than your opponents (which they are in both scenarios using your example) then you are still approximately 40% more likely to score more success than your opponent in either case.

Ah!  You are assuming that the ratio of Attack Dice to Defense dice remains static between the two scenarios, just because the ratio of Attack dice to Attack dice remains static.

Banshee

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« Reply #88 on: (10:10:37/07-12-19) »
If your dice pool is 7 dice higher than your opponents (which they are in both scenarios using your example) then you are still approximately 40% more likely to score more success than your opponent in either case.

Ah!  You are assuming that the ratio of Attack Dice to Defense dice remains static between the two scenarios, just because the ratio of Attack dice to Attack dice remains static.

yes, that's we are talking about here. the whole point of the edge advantage system relies on it being a wash when things are even on both side of the equation ... if one party is effected more than the other then someone has advantage and therefore earning an edge
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #89 on: (10:35:21/07-12-19) »
If your dice pool is 7 dice higher than your opponents (which they are in both scenarios using your example) then you are still approximately 40% more likely to score more success than your opponent in either case.

Ah!  You are assuming that the ratio of Attack Dice to Defense dice remains static between the two scenarios, just because the ratio of Attack dice to Attack dice remains static.

yes, that's we are talking about here. the whole point of the edge advantage system relies on it being a wash when things are even on both side of the equation ... if one party is effected more than the other then someone has advantage and therefore earning an edge

And that is where it breaks down.

You are saying that if everyone takes a -6 Attack dice penalty, it is the same as if no one takes a -6 Attack dice penalty.

Except it isn't.  The Defense dice do not change in either scenario.